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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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I think most of us who took the "test" that Tim "recommended" realized that it was not very "scientific". While surfing the net I found a page in Esperanto (don't ask!). This page is by a 19 y.o. Dutch guy and it includes a kind of FAQ that I think may be a more helpful gayometer. The page does have an English link (at the top) but he didn't include the FAQ in his English translations.
This is the link: http://anaproy.homeip.net/proycon/gay.eo.html
And for the benefit of those of you who don't (yet) speak the International Language here is a translation:
How would I know whether I am gay?
I have made a list of typical gay behaviour:
- You aften look at beautiful guys and think "he's beautiful!" and seldom or never think "she's beautiful!"
- You watch a boring show on TV not because it's a good story ... but because there is a really beautiful guy in the programme!
- You are somewhat silent and timid in the dressing room at school: you enjoy the boy panorama but you feel you are an intruder.
- You can talk with boys about sensitive issues much more easily than with girls.
- You have absolutely no talent at sports.. (I don't know whether that is a general rule, but is certainly is true of me! 
If you are gay you will certainly find out one day ... take your time!
I think that I am gay but I don't want to be!
First of all your unconscious spirit will discover that you are gay ... but then there comes a difficult part for some guys: accepting that you really are gay. Possibly you don't want to be gay and you are shamed to be gay! But your being gay is part of you and you can never get rid of it. After accepting it you will feel better than ever and you will never want to be straight! Let yourself look at guys and enjoy!
I now know that I am gay ... but the whole world does not yet know it... How should I tell them?
The next stage is coming out of the closet: tell friends and family members what you really are. It isn't easy and you will near courage. After that you will be free!
Who should you tell first? Mother? Father? Female friend? Male friend? Member of the family? Neighbour? The dog? The dog certainly will have no problem with you being gay... but that's not the best 'person'. I think the majority of gay guys first come out to a female friend. Only you will decide who you will tell first. Understandably the people you tell will need time to digest the news. Girls are often happy that they can now chat with you about other boys. Coming out will defintely change your life! You will have more opportunities than ever before!
This is the end of my Gay FAQ. I hope that you find it useful information.
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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I am very sorry to imform you that we already have an international language. It is english. In most scientific fields, english is already the language of choice for presented papers and journal article. Even the web is an excellent example of how english has taken over. This does not mean that people living in english speaking countries (like me) should not make an effort to learn other languages, but we need to learn the mother tongue so that we can speak to "ordinary people" in these countries.
I pretty much agree with what your 19yo dutch guy said, but a few things are missing:
How would I know whether I am gay?
- The big one is, I FANSTICISE ABOUT GUYS IN MY SEXUAL THOUGHTS -- this is the big one that defines if you are gay or not
I now know that I am gay ... but the whole world does not yet know it... How should I tell them?
- I read somewhere that you know when you want to "come out" to someone. This is because the feeling of opening up is so strong that you don't care what the world thinks. You become proud of what you are. This is what is was like for me. The problem is of course if you never get this feeling, then I think some pressure is required.
The good thing is that people are comimg out at a much younger age now!
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I agree about English (and I haven't lived in an English speaking country in more than 11 years!). Just as long as native English speakers don't get all arrogant about it and assume too much...that's insulting to loads of non-native speakers.
Oh, on that FAQ...the Dutch kid sounds pretty common sense, but needs to beware of stereotypes, like the comment about sports...there are loads of athletic gay and bi people! Stuff like that...
And about the "when or if to come out" issue...maybe another thread beckons on this topic! Two thoughts from me:
1) NEVER come out if you'll be endangered by doing so, especially if you're a teen or otherwise dependent on others...
2) My other rule of thumb is that it isn't always necessary to come out willy nilly...only if it seems to be getting in the way of an otherweise good friendship or relationship.
Thoughts, anybody?
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Darren wrote that English is THE international language. I can't disagree with that, at the moment. Less than 100 years ago the international language was French... I am hardly an appropriate spokesperson for Esperanto, and yet it seems to me that David made the point for Esperanto quite strongly: >>Just as long as native English speakers don't get all arrogant about it and assume too much...that's insulting to loads of non-native speakers.<< The very fact that one native language is considered preferable to all other native languages is already arrogance. Esperanto was conceived as an AUXILIARY language that anyone could learn in addition to their native language... Anyway, as I said, I am not the best address for such discussions.
As far as a Gayometer is concerned: I think that both Darren and David have added very important considerations. Darren wrote: >>- The big one is, I FANSTICISE ABOUT GUYS IN MY SEXUAL THOUGHTS -- this is the big one that defines if you are gay or not<<. And now David adds: >>1) NEVER come out if you'll be endangered by doing so, especially if you're a teen or otherwise dependent on others... 2) My other rule of thumb is that it isn't always necessary to come out willy nilly...only if it seems to be getting in the way of an otherweise good friendship or relationship.<<
Maybe we should collate these thoughts and perhaps Tim can then see whether he would be able to offer them on the site as "useful information"
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I will take ANYTHING useful and add it here.
EVEN in Esperanto!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Sorry, I cocked it up again ....
I can't think of anything that could more usefully be added to this site than advice on how to deal with the need to acknowledge what we are. It's probably the hardest thing (OK, OK, apart from that!) any of us will ever have to confront, and it's a life-changing (and life-enhancing) experience. My own situation mirrors Tim's - I'm married with two (Str8!) teenage kids - though unlike Tim I was actively (if surreptitiously) gay in my own teens and early twenties. Without Tim's example I'd never have had the guts to come out, but I'm so glad that I did. It's not that my life has changed (well, not much) but it means a hell of a lot to be relieved of the baggage of secrecy and guilt.
... and since I'm posting, Hi! to all the new 'regulars' from a fairly long-standing, if rather irregular regular. It's great to see this Board attracting the traffic it deserves. Sorry I've been away for the last three months, but (to quote Rudyard Kipling)
"Full oft on Guv'ment service
This rovin' foot 'ath pressed .....
.... and I haven't had much time for relaxation, but hopefully I'll have an uninterrupted spell at home in June and July, so I'll be sticking my nose in then. In the meantime, I formally move the expulsion of Mihangel from the Board on two counts: (1) He appears to be Welsh, and thus beyond the bounds of civilised society, and (2) he scored under 30% on the gayometer and thus appears to have no redeeming features whatsoever - even I, a big, butch Scotsman could manage 33%! Bye, bye, Mi'angel-bach!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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No Message Body
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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How do you want gay-o-meter information/thoughts passed along - discussed here or to you via e-mail or ??
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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that the best way would be for you people to send me your ideas via e-mail. When I think I have everybody's ideas I'll post them to the board for further discussion and comment.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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http://www.iomfats.org/resources/orientation.htm which is a mixture of a personal voyage and thoughts on how one os who one is.
It's been around for a while, so maybe needs some beefing up.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Thanks, Tim, I hadn't read that section for quite awhile now. Maybe a bit of segregation between your personal experiences and a compiled list of indicators would be good? I think you certainly SHOULD keep everything you've already written about your experiences - one of the things I like best about finding new web sites is the bios (or equivalent) to learn more about others in detail.
Although I agree that probably no man is 100% hetro, I don't find the porn movie argument convincing. Some guys like to watch lesbians - no cocks at all - for example.
I also personally disagree that ALL guys check out others at the urinal, etc. I don't - too embarrased - I make a point of not looking. Maybe all straight guys do - can't testify to that - maybe all guys WANT to - but I guess it seems overkill to say "ALL" of anyone does anything and it takes away a bit of credibility, IMHO of course.
Hmm, I seem to be focusing on the negative - sorry, I was intending to be constructive. I'll have to come up with some points for Steve now!
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Sorry for the delay in picking this one up - I've been away, not on Guv'ment service, but in Wales. Yes, Cossie, in Wales. But I'll resist rising further to your bait, beyond relaying what you told me once, that your own ancestry is largely Cumbrian. And historically Cumbrians are effectively Welsh (Cumbria = Cymru). So despite your posing, we're really brothers, united in brotherly love. You are therefore forgiven.
As for my pitiful 26%, the flaw in the original gayometer test is of course that it's based on stereotypes which (to coin a metaphor) don't hold water when you hold them up to the light. Just like the point in Steve's test, which David exposed, about gays and sports. On the new test, which is better in almost every way, if the points were scored, I'd get a high mark.
What still puzzles, me though, is this. On this board there's a surprising number of us geezers (or relative geezers) who by all these yardsticks are essentially gay, but yet have married wonderful girls. I'm one of them. But I'm not bi. I've only ever been interested in boys, never in girls, apart from that one single exception. It's commonly said that there's a spectrum ranging from fully gay through bi to fully straight, which seems to make sense. But if it's true, where do I belong on that spectrum, or am I not on it at all? I've no idea, but I'd like to know. The same question, I guess, applies to quite a few of us. How does one begin to answer it?
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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1=straight 6=gay
I am thus 5.5
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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I'm not fully convinced. If one moved marginally down the scale from 6, fully gay, I'd have thought you'd come at 5.5 to the very largely gay but showing a mild interest in girls (plural), the interest becoming greater as you moved further down. That doesn't fit me (or you??) - it's not a mild interest in girls, it's a major interest in ONE, just ONE, girl, to the extent of marrying her and never regretting it.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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No Message Body
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 92
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ohh well Dad, I never thought that Esperanto can give you SUCH  useful information.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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For me, the simple answer is love. I fell in love with my wife, who at the time met my sexual needs as well. I didn't realize I was gay at the time so it all seemed natural. Maybe my orientation has become more pronounced over time, especially as the hormones settle down?
Now, I'm not physically attracted to her body at all, but am attracted to her friendship, love, mutual interests (kids!) and have a strong desire to meet her physical needs (which for her is really an embodiment of emotional needs.) I enjoy meeting her lovemaking needs, even though at this point, to be perfectly honest and selfish, I'd rather "do it myself" since a male partner isn't an option for me.
Now if the genders and orientations were reversed and I was a straight guy who fell in love with a guy because I THOUGHT I was gay due to sexual gratification, would I still be with him? I wonder. I'll bet the additional burden of gay relationships would make that tough, whereas society and family don't mind me being married. Anyone know of this happening? I suppose it's more likely to self-label yourself "gay" or at least "bi" if you are straight and sleeping with a guy than for me to label myself "gay" while sleeping with a girl.
I believe Tim, and probably others, ARE attracted to their wives physically, but some were probably more self-aware of their orientation at the time they dated/married as well, so I'm surely not speaking for others - as usual.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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that you mention, Trevor. But long before I fell head over heels in love with her I knew I was gay. I'd never been the slightest bit interested in girls. And, even though I'm married and still in love and faithful (no risk on that score), that's still the case. I'm still gay - I look at boys with considering, yes, even lustful eyes, but never ever look at girls in that way. Which is why I reckon I'm not bi. So I'm still puzzled; but not complaining.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Umm ... Well ... I'd have thought it was obvious that the Cumbri were in every way superior to the Cymry, on account of being closer the Scotland! But I wonder whether the choice of words in your response indicates recognition of the Barrack Room Ballad from which I quoted? In which case, I suppose I'll have to concede, Cymryphobe though I may be!
But as regards the serious point of your post, I acknowledge the mystery. It seems to me that it's all part of the larger question of the originating causes of human homosexuality. The trouble is, there's almost no truly independent research; most papers on the subject are attributable in whole or in part to gay academics, and it is difficult to regard their conclusions as being entirely free from bias. I know Tim favours the genetic school of thought. I don't. I lean to the view that we are all born with the same innate potential; it is our post-natal experience which determines our score on the real gayometer of life, but we absorb that experience from the moment of birth and that absorption isn't susceptible to analysis by conscious logic. In other words, your life-experience up to the age of 18 months may be enough to make you irretrievably gay, but you can never know exactly what led to that result. That's a very short statement of a very complex view, but it does acknowledge the potential for infinite variation. Like that Welsh person whose name escapes me, I don't know how or why I fell in love with my wife; I just did, and nothing has changed since then. But I always fancied girls, albeit on a very selective scale of approval. They had to be boyish (not 'mannish', which conveys a completely different impression - I'm thinking more of slim hips and 'cute' looks). Inexplicably, the girl I fell in love with was actually very feminine! But I still fancy boyish girls - in fact - to me - the strongest evidence of my gayness is my tendency to be a little disappointed if the androgenous objects of my desire turn out to be girls rather than boys - though it doesn't necessarily stop me from lusting! But the point I am trying to underline is the infinite variety of the human condition. I don't find it strange in the least that Tim, or Mihangel, or anyone else, should fall for a single example of the female of the species. I suppose that in the course of my life I've been sexually attracted to a couple of dozen girls, and possibly a couple of thousand boys. So what? It's what I am, and I've learned to live with it. In short, I'm fully supportive of almost every variant on the scale of human sexuality, provided that they aren't Welsh and are more than 26% gay!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but you could've stolen that line right out of my brain (and I wouldn't have noticed what with all the leaks . . . ) I saw one today, in fact.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Right, where do we start? Lesser points first, perhaps.
(1) The international confrontation appears to have ended in an uneasy truce. Though I might add that once you've subtracted from the Scots the ragbag of Irish, Pictish, Viking and English elements you're left with a core of good Welsh (i.e. Brythonic) stock. Which, inexplicably, you do not seem to be proud of. Rhag dy gywilydd!
(2) I seem to remember that you've kipled before, Cossie, so no surprise to find you kipling again.
(3) Not androgenous, please, but androgynous, if you mean hermaphrodite (oh God, and now you'll get at me again for being pedantic). But it reminds me of another nice kiple, on the Marine: "'E's a kind of a giddy harumfrodite - soldier an' sailor too!".
On weightier matters, though, you've highlighted two rather different points. On the infinite variety of sexualities, all of which (except perhaps the nastier manifestations) are equally valid, I fully agree. As you say, if you're happy with where you are, so what? I'm happy with my condition; and I've only been going on about it because my mind likes to put things neatly into pigeonholes, and in this case is failing to locate the right one. I'm not convinced that a straight-line Kinsey-type graph is universally applicable. But I'm not going into a terminal decline over it.
The other aspect you raise is Nature v. Nurture. For no very profound reasons I tend to agree with Tim on Nature. Isn't there evidence with identical twins who are raised separately that if one is gay the other is likely to be gay too? Anybody who's better genned up that me want to start a new thread?
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I fancied Welsh boys. I used to go on holiday to Pwllheli
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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No Message Body
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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It looks good either way
My apostrophe key needs to be moved.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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No Message Body
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... ended? Wash your mouth out with soap!
(1) Hey, fiddle-de-dee, Goidelic lads for me! And I'm afraid that my recollection of Welsh lessons is a bit of a Rhag-bag and I can't lay hands on my dictionary, so you'll have to translate your closing exhortation!
(2) I reserve the right to kiple without interference from the Brythonic minority. I have a fondness for exceedingly good cakes. But did you identify the source of my quote, and did it influence the choice of words in your previous response?
(3) You're right, damn it! I can only protest that I posted under the affluence of inkahol - but then, I usually do! And I'm not averse to the odd harumfrodite - but preferably not of the giddy variety.
(4) No, I don't support a straight-line graph. Logic dictates a normal distribution curve, substantially skewed by environmental factors.
(5) I'm a bit cynical about the twin research; there isn't enough of it to be convincing. The odds against ANY two male siblings being gay aren't particularly high in any event.
In conclusion, a curious facet of my love/hate relationship with the Brythonic inferiority - sorry, I mean minority! - is the fact that one of the very few serious disagreements I have had with my wife arose from her refusal to have Cwm Rhondda (in the guise of Guide me, O Thou Great Redeemer) as one of the hymns at our wedding. Mind you, I confess that I was more familiar with the version beginning 'We don't play for adoration ....' If you really want to impress me, Mi'angel-bach, can you give me a translation of the words of 'Suo Gan' - the title theme from the film 'Empire of the Sun'? I don't know why, but the treble voices on the soundtrack have always seemed incredibly and arousingly sexy!
As, of course, is -
Romans, keep your armour!
Saxons, your pyjamas!
Hairy coats were meant for goats,
Gorillas, Yaks, Retriever-Dogs and Llamas!
Ancient Briton never hit on
Anything as good as woad to fit on
Neck, or knee, or where you sit on -
Better, far, is woad!
Bugger the Men of Harlech! After you, of course!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Answers:
1. "Shame on you!"
2. Yes.
3. Of course.
Suo Gan (somewhat free translation to preserve the metre and, with a minor fiddle, the rhyme; but no literary merit claimed):
Sleep, my child, upon my bosom,
Where it's cosy and it's warm.
Mother's arms wrap tightly round you,
Mother's love lies in my breast.
Nothing shall disturb your slumbers,
Nobody will do you harm.
Sleep in peace, dear little baby,
Gently sleep on mother's chest.
Plus another two verses in similar vein, available on request accompanied by suitable payment.
Hadn't heard your version of Men of Harlech before - nice.
You *can* have a one-sided truce, even if it's liable to be suicidal. Perhaps I should have said earlier, Cossie, that it's good to have you back as a sparring-partner: how's that as a peace-offering?
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... my conscience is pricked. I shall be a model of restraint. (Yawn!)
Thanks for the translation - I realised it was a lullaby, and the words are much as I expected. I think I can dispense with the remaining verses. Nice, though!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Who don't (yet) speak the International Language? 
Steve (and Tim) - please take this seriously (take 2) ....... 
Cossie, I have already promised Tim to do so 
Ambiguity there, Tim. Did you intend that semi-colon? 
I'm; much relieved 
Sighs ... 
