|
|
tim
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I suppose it was inevitable, and the damage is mostly self repaired.
I thought I would be able to cope without a thing touching me. But it was not to be, and I hope it doesn't come back today, but it might.
Today I go to Gloucester on business. I do this about every six months or so. In Gloucester, in the probation office, works the man who is the boy I loved and then obsessed over. Last night many of the old feelings came back and got to me. Wanting to see him. Not even to meet, just to look. A sort of morbid curiosity to see what I can never have lost because I never had it in the first place.
Today I think I can do the trip without tears.
But I want to drive past his office like I used to drive past his house, hoping to see him playing outside. Well, you know what I mean  I can't, of course, and I won't.
Couldn't tell She Who Must Be Obeyed At All Times because she is under huge stress because one of our two dogs just has to be choosing this moment to have fallen ill, and she's crying about him, so I can't add more to her burden. So last night I listenedto her going oin about the dig instead of being able to go on about me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
At least I drove to Gloucester this morning. I didn't make the mistake of listening to the radio, so I didn't get the usual heart lurch when a love song came on. "Unchained Melody" is big here again right now, and I just see John when I hear that song, so no radio was wise.
Outskirts of Gloucester I saw the cathedral.
I think I did something sensible then. I started yelling at him from inside the soundproof environment of the car, telling him how, well, telling him all sorts of things that I don't really mean, and being angry. And I got past the mood.
Mostly.
I can't ever get "over" him. But I can get past him. I have loved him since the middle of September 1965, and that just does not go away overnight, if ever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
Question for you tim: Have you ever seen John in his "older" state?
I agree with you not trying to make contact, but if you have never seen him, this might make you get over him. He will be some old fart (sorry tim) and may help to replace the thoughts of that young fresh teenager in your mind.
Thus, maybe taking a peak (without speaking to him) may be a good idea. The problem is of course, what does he look like now?
Just a thought...
Darren
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I have never seen him at all. I would pass him on the street and not recognise him.
But it wasn't looks, though I found him highly appealing. It was everything inside him as well.
If he's fat and bald and disfigured, would I still love him? No real answer. I have always wondered.
I gave this boy the key to my happiness when I was 13, and I am fighting to regain control of it so many long years later.
I am perfectly capable of staking out his house or his office. Or of hiring a PI to take pics. But that is just adding fuel to the fire, I think; rekindling the obsession. That would be an error.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
at least you have this place to vent and discuss it. Sounds like you're doing pretty well considering the condition of your heart. If you do try to peek, just be careful he couldn't get the impression you're "stalking" him - after the contacts you've already made, that could be very bad. Not that I think you will.
* H U G *
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
He works in the Probation Service. And thus has major police contacts to be really unpleasant to me legally if I screwed up.
Do oyu know, two years ago when I phone him he asked, out of the blue, about our old school: "Do you think the place is still full of paedophiles?" I wondered, but never asked "Do you mean me, and the way you knew I loved you?"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
My question would not be "Do you mean me?" (remember you were also 13 back then), but rather "What experiences did you have that causes to you to think that there were so many pedophiles there?".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
Now! But at the time I was struck dumb.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
No Message Body
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
of boarding school myself, but to me it would only make sense that if you take a bunch of boys that age, semi-isolate them with older peers for supervision, and take away old friends and family but give them time to think and bodies to look at, minds would start to wander and look for comfort, love, and friendship where they could get it. My closest experience was 6th grade camp for a week, at age 11, and I was so homesick and lonely, therefore my quotes around pleasure.
Also, John may have meant the faculty/staff? If so, a dark experience could be why he's so against contact with you, knowing but maybe not understanding your feelings at the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I read your back story on your love for John that has lasted all your life. If what you say is true; that you fell in love with him at 13 not only because of the way he looked but for the goodness inside.........then I wonder what caused him over these years to grow indifferent and cold to other people's feelings.It's so sad to know that time can turn a loving boy into a sour man. Your experience has strengthened you, causing you to look inside yourself and show your kindness constantly. But he has not been as fortunate apparently. I don't have too many memories yet but the ones that hurt just seem to hurt forever. My opinion?...I think it is definitely HIS loss, not knowing you as a friend or any other way.
Next time you are going to Glouster, let me know. I'll send you a CD guaranteed to keep you dancin' and smilin'.
smith
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
We were that rare thing, a "day boy" at a boarding school. We never stayed the night, so the opportunities to receive unwelcome adult attentions were restricted, though not impossible.
I suspect catholicism, since there were 4 siblings, and all seemed to be very "good" kids.
I am sure he meant the staff, but my mind went "I loved you when you were 13, so that make me a paedophile", even though logic deserted me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I think John has his own reasons. I am pretty sure he returned at least affection, but our environment of 1965-1970 was so different from today and being queer then was likely to be at best a matter for being bullied and at worst physically dangerous.
He isn't sour, I think, so much as insular. He is a slightly bitter man that he was not taight well enough to become a doctor. He is the only one in his family not to be one, and I suspect feels inferior.
A lot is his loss. I would have been his friend for life if not his lover and partner. But I was intimidating as a kid, and crowded him too. It was an oppressive love I had for him. Not possessive, but oppressive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I'm sorry.......see, I said I didn't understand a lot of things. I still see things in black and white. I need to start seeing the shades of gray.
The times were different, the hostility and disgrace greater
than today. Dear God...that's frightening.
You just pushed harder than he was able to give, possibly for protection. I'm sorry I denigrated him without fully understanding. You were just wanting him to take a step he possibly was unable or, due to the times, unwilling to take and now life has not been kind to him.
I WILL stand by my statement of his loss though. Not knowing Tim....his loss !!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It is my sincere belief not knowing Tim would be a loss to anyone. He's proven to be a steadfast friend and a compassionate human being. I'm ever grateful to him for that.
Let me now give you my welcome to the Place of Safety. You are one of the board's youngest participants, and certainly one of the wisest. Your presence here enriches us all. I hope we will enjoy your company for a long time to come!
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
I sincerely appreciate your welcome just as long as you promise to kick me if I say something really stupid. I'm just trying to understand how to talk about all this. It's sort of one step forward...ten steps back right now. Being 15 is weird enough without adding labels and I need all the help I can get  Just to let you know I'm not always so serious, here's a really immature >>giggle<<.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
Often things need to be both said and heard, even if shades of grey obscure the real meaning. And you dodn;t denigrate him, or if you did, well it is no more than I think inside anway. Mind you, who ever heard of thinking outside?
Stay black and white. It helps.
I never truly pushed at school. Rather I gave him no real space. And at school he never pushed me away, yet never drew me closer either. The awful thing is that I had no idea what to do
In favour of acting
|
Against Acting
|
- Knowledge
- Closure
- Possibility of returned love
|
- Fear of the law
- Certain expulsion from School
- Terror of psychiatric "cures"
- Aversion Therapy
- Ridicule
- Physical violence
- Loss of 100% of "friends"
- Fear of Father
|
Quite a list isn't it, the "against" side? The law frightened me, because in 1965 homosexuality was illegal and was not legalised until December 1967 in the UK. And then only between "Consenting Adults in Private". And the furore about that legalisation was such as to bring out every homophobe in "British Redneck Splendour".
At school we discussed it. In depth, and with real horror in some cases and mock horror for those of us who wanted other boys to love us. We had to pose as homophobic to survive.
All of this is, in part, the reason this has stayed with me all these years.
Falling in love was a simple enough thing, but the terror that surrounded it made the event into a huge obstacle, and one which I had neither the background nor the parental backup to cope with. Instead I retreated into a false shell of humour and bravado, and allowed this to take my life over.
The terror made a feeling whoch could and should have been happy into one that I allowed to scare me. Nite the fact that I take full responsibility for this. I allowed it to happen. BUT I never realised I was allowing it to happen. That alone is the reason behind this place and my web site.
That is also why, when my son was not yet suffering the joys of puberty, and well before he knew I was gay, I took him quietloy aside and told him that "...boys may find they are attracted to girls or to boys. If you are attracted to boys it doesn;tmatter, and you can come and talk to me about it without worrying that I wil be upset. I will love you every bit as much. And mum agrees." He said "Oh, Dad, YUCK! I'm not GAY!"
I trust that he will do the same for his kids. All parents should do this, and mean it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Don't drive past crying, drive past laughing at the miserable little bastard that didn't know what he was missing!!!
Have pitty for the insufferable bureaucratic sot that didn't have enough class to acknowledge your attempts at friendship!!!
Lastly, drive away and rejoice in the comfortable feeling that you never had to endure his presence.
Hugest huggs.... You know above all where I am coming from....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would never kick you. I don't believe in punishing friendly people in such a manner simply because they let their toungue slip once... (Or in this case, fingers I suppose.)
So please forgive me for this flaw in my character...
Anyway, I do so admire you for having the guts of visiting the board like this at your young age. I don't think I would have been ready for it when I was 15. Not that I think I was immature, I was just so terribly withdrawn that I think I'd died of shame if I had talked to somebody about myself back then. Which ironically is just what I would have needed at that point. So for that reason too I feel good for you. In a way, I was fifteen years too late in finding this place, you have this wonderful opportunity right now. For that, you should consider yourself blessed...
So go ahead, use us as little or as much as you'd like. From what I've seen so far, there seems to be little risk of you actually saying something stupid. So don't worry about it, you're safe here. Which is why I like this board so much; nobody's out to judge anyone else.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
|
|
|
You're a good dad! All parents SHOULD do that and mean it! But, they don't. There's a really bad movie out in the rental stores called Rites of Passage.I bought a copy because the way the boy is raised is my life.He was so starved for affection, he made terrible mistakes. "Here's the gun, smith. Kill the deer." "Here's the high diving board, smith. Jump off." You won't shoot? Then, skin the body. You won't jump, I'll push you. Trying to make a "man" of your son only works if you're the right kind of man, decent, caring and non-judgemental.
You never realized you were allowing it to happen, falling in love with John.That's easy to relate to. You start something as almost a lark, and suddenly realize you wait, holding your breath,just for a moment of his time.Time he won't give you.I really don't think you ALLOWED it so much as it consumed you because you needed it and were ready for it. He just wasn't.
Many of the reasons against acting on your feelings have changed in the past years, but the last 4 are still in effect. For me, they would be 1. Fear of father big time 2. Physical violence-ever seen drunk kids with baseball bats? 3. Ridicule [which I could handle, but why put myself through it?] 4. Loss of maybe 70% of my friends out of ignorance and religious beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I associate manliness with the ability to admit that you cannot do something. It is far braver to say "this is not for me" than to do it blindly.
The film shows an unmanly father, not an unmanly son.
Yet so many fathers are scared of their own latent attraction to other men that they do not ALLOW their sons to appear "unmanly" for fear of their being queer.
My own father was scared that the CLOTHES I wore would make me "A nancy boy", or if I wanted a ring to wear that would make me "a queer". I had to be "A real man" for him. Short hair, no aftershave, no jewelery. And I had to grow through my teens talking about the girls I fancied, and the TV stars I fancied.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I was angry instead. Angry that he dared to reject me before he even knew what he was rejecting. And angry at myself for ever having given him any power over me.
I cannot pity him. Not ever.
I do know where you are coming from. Anyone want to phone him and MAKE him meet me? [not serious]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
I sorry to be a spoil sport here, but we are a bunch of gay (or whatever) guys talking here. You tell one of us that another guy has the hots for us and we think "GREAT! Is he good looking?".
However, John is most likely NOT GAY. For him being told that you (Tim) have had the hots for him for the last 35 yrs may have been a shock. In fact, he may think it is disgusting, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It certainly does not make him homophobic. He does not want to make contact with you tim because he thinks you are totally weird--does not like fact that you wanted/want to jump into his knickers.
A girl in university once told me that she totally wanted me. I did not find her attractive and was mostly thinking of other guys at the time. I found it very difficult to talk to her after that. It still makes me uneasy. Not because I don't like her, just because I am nervous I guess. It was not easy for her to say that, and I did not reward her with the answer that she was looking for. It should be her that is nervous and me that is understanding, but I guess it is just human nature. What I am trying to say is that John is not probably missing a great friendship because it could never have been one. Once he new that you fancied him, it would have changed everthing. It would have pushed you both apart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Because we only know wjhat he said to Tim when he called, and we also (I suppose) know all that he HASN'T said...the rest is, and always has been pure projection.
I suppose it's natural that there might always be periods of time when little mini-eruptions of the Old Obsession occur.
For myself, I'm happy that Tim didn't have to do a drive by or try for a sighting...that will only lead to more obsessing, imho...
Put him out of mind and thought as well as you have out of your heart.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
I pretty much agree with Darren. Even IF John did genuinely have feelings for Tim, he's likely now grown out of that "phase" and gotten on with his life or repressed that part of himself because that's the best he could do. Why second-guess the past that would rather be forgotten for whatever reason.
I can relate to that feeling somewhat. Even though I really enjoyed high school and it was essentially "ideal" for me, I have NO desire to attend class reunions. I lasted about 10 minutes at the 10-year one and I just missed the 20 year entirely. I don't know why, but I have nothing to say to those people (I was never very social) and partly want to forget them. I am a different person now in so many ways. There is only one person I want to contact because she was one of two very close friends and I've lost contact.
Tim is a great guy, and of course it would be a loss for anyone to not have a friendship with a great guy. But from John's current perspective, Tim wants to "take him" somewhere he's not prepared to journey and likely without understanding Tim's motivation - so, not so great.
I've thought about contacting the boy I fancied in high school - although not to Tim's degree with John, no true, deep love - but I know that while it might make me feel better to get it off my chest and have some closure, it's more likely to be bad for him than good. If he were gay and comfortable with both that and his current life, we both might have a chuckle, but not likely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
If I assume that John really had no idea about my feelings, which is possible, my first attempts to contact him were with him still unknowing. I called him almost two years ago and suggested a meeting. "It will have to be after I finish [some management course or other] in Birmingham," he said. Light, carefree, seemingly content to be contacted, yet oddly "forgetful" about who I was. "I'm not really iunto reunions, though. I didn't enjoy school."
After the course was over I tried again. Another light conversation, culminating in "Call me at work to arrange it, because I haven't got my diary here." And that led into the difficulty in contacting him, and the true fact that he didn;t want to see me (or anyone?)
It was only then that I told him I (had?) loved him and the series of "no replies" started.
So, looking at it form his viewpoint, he was unaware (probably) of me and my desire to meet and the reason behind it, so had no reason to be afraid, disgusted, or any of the thoughts attributed to him. Until I sent the letter to him he was simply an extrememly impolite man who could not say "No, tim, I do not want to meet anyone, at all, ever." Instead he did the "call me at work so I can hide from your call" trick.
Since then he has run true to form.
Of course receiving my letter shocked him. But then I had given him so manmy chances to hear in person and I needed to do it for me. Not for him, and not to seduce him. So he was (probably) shocked. And disgusted. But that is not at issue here.
What is at issue is not a figment of my imagination in Gloucester, but me, my life, my brain and my own struggle to get out of a self imposed, self perpetuated prison. That John is (possibly) uncomfortable with knowing that there is a man 100 miles from him who wanted his mind, body and spirit, let alone his friendship is truly a side issue, since it will never and can never come to pass.
It just happens that I am living this in public.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I cannto put him out of my mind. BUT he no longer intrudes except for short periods. This has been since September 2001. Pretty good to last until May 2002 with no intrusion.
No thinking about something is impossible. For example, do not think about an elephant, especially an African one, with the larger ears.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I am sorry. I have been there. Mine is married with 4 children. Hope you get through it OK. I would like to be there for you if I could. I am in spirit anyway.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
Mine has 3 kids. Ah well.
We GET through it, and you ARE here.
The reason I am playing this out in piblic is to show people that this is NOT a road to walk. Itsucks. No-one shoudl go through this shit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steve
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
|
|
|
Not serious? Maybe you should be. As you know, I have offered to perform this service for you on several occasions, and would do so gladly and (hopefully) diplomatically. The offer is still there. Any time. The choice is yours. The only question, to my mind, is what benefit would it be to you? Hugs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
It would serve no real purpose, and yet the temptation is ever there. It is the same as pressing against his thigh in chapel, or trying to stroke him surreptitiously, hoping he would notice, afraid in case he did.
I am serious, almost.
Pro
|
Con
|
- Closure
- Seeing how he turned out
- Relief
|
- Ultimate rejection
- Hatred
- Fear (his, never mine)
- Harming him in some way with the memories
|
There are more on each side, of course. The challenge with all of this is that it wil always hurt as I try to let it go. i think the ultimate benefit is the ability to get it through my thick head that it is not "over", but that it never "was" in the first place.
Until then it goes back to the desks with "I love John" and "I love the Furry Animal" all over them in my own block capitals, but written small.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Darren
|
|
Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
|
|
|
I missed much of this thread over the weekend where I was away from a computer. I don't like to guess about someone's past experiences without knowing everthing, but if I had to, I would say that something did happen to John. Put together the comment about strange comment about pedophiles and also hating school. Did he ever tell you (back then) that he hated school? Was he bullied or picked on? If not, then there may be a chance that something bad did happen to him. If that is the case, then what you told him would be way too much for him to handle.
Now, there is probably a much bigger chance that nothing (sexual) ever happened to him, but I think you have to consider it as a possibility.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
I think it is more likely that his role at work as a probation officer and manager in the probation service has opened his eyes to paedophilia, accustaions for which are either fashionable or increasing worldwide. He deals with court reports on Paedophiles and the rehabilitation of them, like all probation officers. I am pretty sure it was a subconcious reatcion to me and my existence. He will have recognised a boys' school as a haven for real and imagined paedophiles. To be fair all schools have them. Usually true lovers of children rather than sexual predators. Without being vain, I was a cute kid. If anything untoward had been going on I would (also) have been a target.
I am more inclined to think that he threw the line in because he knew inside that I had a strong feeling for him back then. He was a boy capable of handling himself well in any situation and was unconcerned by homosexual banter from others. He gave as good as he got.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tim,
Are you ever oing to stop teaching me something bout myself, I sure hope not, But as it stands, I will never be able to repay you. If you ever need my help in any way, PLEASE, PLEASE ask.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
I hit a brick wall yesterday 
Question 
smith, I agree fully. 
Re: I hit a brick wall yesterday 
No, I can't promise that! 
Lets look at it from John's point of view 
