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tim
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Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
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But the post is in the first answer.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
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Often I meet people who have been victims of emotional, physical or sexual abuse, or a combination thereof. To those of us who meet people hurt in this way it is familiar, normal and sad that each feels to blame for the acts perpetrated on them. Often those who have a strong faith also feel that they have sinned in some major way and that their God will not love them, and they feel outcast for ever.
A common and reasonable theme is a feeling of dirtiness, which will not wash out nor away. Some "indulge" in "obsessive compulsive" washing processes to seek to wash the sin away or the imagined (yet all to real) self perceived dirt.
I am aware that this thread could become trivial, even harmful, to such a person, yet I am wondering what advice could and should be given to such a person that is of practical use. Please, a "Snap out of it" answer might feel appropriate of you have not suffered or met a person suffering, but it is an unrealistic message to give and to receive, for they would have, if they could have.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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No Message Body
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I think that the end result here is that EACH persons personal trip is that, theirs.
The washing and other little habits that seem strange to others are cathartic. I know I went through showering 3-4 times a day and doing things like checking the front and back door every few mins. My Dad and brother NEVER made fun of me and they NEVER sat there and asked me questions all the time.
I think that the MOST important thing is for Parents and relatives is to NOT treat the Victim as some type of freak. There are JUST too many things I could say about all the Negative side so, I will just say the thing I think is important,
ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE.
People have a habit of changing your direction through life
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When I was eleven my father had been gone for about two years (just walked out one day and didn't come back). I joined the local Boy Scout unit because that was what kids did in my town. The second meeting I attended the Scout Master pulled me off to a side room and kissed me on the lips. I think I was so desirour of any type of adult male attention at that time that I thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then he stuck his hand down the front of my pants and asked if I liked what he was doing. An eleven year old that didn't like having someone play with his dick? Of course I said yes.
That started a six month affair with him. He introduced me to sucking and fucking. Then he disappeared. I don't know why, though now I can guess that maybe he got caught with another boy (I knew I was not the only one he did things with). When it stopped I missed him terribly, but did not think that we had done anything wrong. From my perspective now, I can see how he took advantage of me, but I never really thought of it as wrong until just a few years ago. In other words, for almost 35 years I did not look at those experiences as something bad that happened to me. I don't know, was it a method of coping? Maybe David can say but I can't. All I know is that I never felt dirty about the things we did, and still don't to a certain extent. I know it probably affected my adult life, but exactly how I cannot tell you. I will say I do not feel guilt about it. I do think it affects how I look at people today who claim they were molested as children and crying about the great harm they have suffered, all the while being happily married, successful in their jobs, and not going around as molesters themselves.
First time all this has ever seen print.
Hugs, Charlie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
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I don't for a moment seek to belittle the reactions of those who have been abused; we are all individuals, and we have no right to presume how others should react to such experiences.
If you've been a regular on this board for some time, you'll know how strongly I disapprove of intergenerational relationships, consensual or otherwise. But I do accept absolutely that the kids involved are not necessarily harmed by the experience, though many are. This isn't simply a pet theory - I worked for the County Children's Service both before and after attending University. I can't forget one kid of 13, remanded to local authority care after being 'abused' by a youth leader. He was a willing 'victim' - like Charlie, starved of affection from other sources. His life was shattered not by the relationship, but by society's reaction to it. He cried almost continuously for the several weeks I shared in responsibility for his care; God! how I wanted to hug him, but I didn't dare. I wish I knew how he coped in later life, but I know that 'the system' was concerned much more with the punishment of the adult than with the consequent trauma for the child.
Yes, I believe in supporting victims in whatever way may be appropriate - but 'appropriate' is a very significant word.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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I'm confused......
Are you saying that if a child walks
willingly, perhaps innocently, into a situation
where he is then molested, that he is a willing
victim? That he wanted the attention, no matter
the cost? That he knew what he was doing?
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I once knew a lady who was sexually abused by her father. She married, had two children and after her husband died, she enrolled in school, earned a masters degree and became a licensed therapist. From the outside looking in you'd think she was a healthy, well-adjusted, very successful woman. She had briefly been in therapy, but never really resolved the issues surrounding her abuse. As a result she never really learned how to establish a healthy parent-child relationship with her own children. She paid very little attention to them. Her son molested her daughter. It went on for more than a year. The girl said nothing, but her behavior changed. There was every indication that something was wrong, but mom ignored it. She couldn't see it despite her training and experience. Most likely because she was still traumatized by the abuse she had suffered. My point being that you should not assume that a person is not suffering just because they don't appear to be.
It sounds that you, Charlie, may not have been very traumatized by the event, perhaps not at all. Not everyone is. This is one reason that, in the state of California anyway, the laws concerning child abuse begin with the phrase "The child has suffered..." they then describe the acts which may be considered abusive, but only if "The child has suffered..." That doesn't mean that the scout master didn't break some criminal laws pertaining to the acts themselves regardless of the effect upon the victim, but it does indicate that while you may have been victimized, you may not have been abused. At this point it is likely that only you can make that determination.
Hugs back at you and
Think good thoughts,
e
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
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Do you think you had emotional needs that led you to "accept" a relationship which the scoutmaster, that could've been meet through more traditional contact/relationships/support? If not, was it mostly a mutually benefitial sex thing?
Thanks so much, by the way, for sharing your story. I am happy that you don't feel traumatized in the least (if I understood) but do have trouble accepting the likelihood of a non-emotionally needy kid doing what you did. Maybe I just was very non-sexual at that age, but my kids' friends appear to be as well.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
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God doesn't punish us (at least not in this life) - he gives everyone free will and bad things DO happen to good people.
Everyone (well there may be exceptions!) is valuable and has a lot to give to society and individuals. Ashley and smith are some good young examples, Tim, David, etc some older ones.
It can be hard to convince people of these facts (IMHO, they are facts) of course, and make it relevant to them. My wife was not really shown that she was loved or valued by her parents, and has some significant self-esteem issues to this day. It takes constant "feeding" to keep her emotionally balanced - telling her once in awhile isn't good enough.
Most people have no idea how much impact or influence they have on others, how much they would be missed by people who they assume don't know they exist.
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First, I'd like to say it was a really brave thing you did just then, telling not just ONE person this for the first time, but everyone...
My father was never missing, not physically at least, but emotionally. He was kind and all that, but distant and didn't really make me feel loved even though he said so at times. I could never play with him, even when I was little or anything like that because he said once he didn't know how. It's like he'd forgotten how it was to be a kid or something...
I can't be certain, but it's quite possible I too would have welcomed some adult physical attention. You say you didn't feel dirty for a long time about what happened. What made you change your mind, the fact this scout leader likely was attracted to your young age rather than YOU yourself perhaps, or something else?
Take care, Charlie!
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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I have read the story of Charlie and I spose it is the way HE feels. But, he wasnt RAPED per se.
I was and I felt so dirty and like I WAS the perpertrator. I felt like I had done something that let people see I was a FAG. I was hurt physically and sexually. I had my anus stitched and a few stiches in my head cause he bashed me to make sure I never said anything about WHO it was.
The end result is there is NO reason EVER for "inter-generational" sex. Maybe those that have been involved can rationalise what happened away BUT, for EVERY one that can, there are at least 4-5 that cant. I did for a time go to a Workshop in Melbourne where they had guys 13-18 there that have been through sex abuse in varying forms. They All had problems that cant be rationalised away.
Love and sex are NOT a natural progression. NAMBLA and other orgs that tout "boylove" are feuling their own UN NATURAL urges to have SEX with boys. I loved My Uncle but now, I dont even detest him. He is just a person sitting in a jail. Forgive me if I sound like I am taking a personal hit at anyone here. I speak as an EX Victim. I win, not him.
People have a habit of changing your direction through life
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
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What you say on inter generational relationships and other topics is right. I may be no victim, but what you say seems right to me, bro!
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I will try to answer the questions, and offer my own humble opinion of what is going on inside my pea brain, but like I said before, David would probly be more qualified than I.
I believe it was because of the emotional need for a strong male influence in my life that led to what ocurred. I had two older brothers at that time, but they were both busy trying to keep the family afloat. Plus I never felt any strong attatchment to them until I became an adult. At that age I did not know what sex was, or that what we did was sex. All I knew was that it felt good, both physically and emotionally. Maybe that was why I didn't feel traumatized. And I didn't call it abuse until just recently as I have become more aware of the concept of abuse. In reality, I never even thought about the episode much. I seemed to accept it as just another part of my childhood. I think that if I had told my mother, or gone to authorities, then the stigma of abuse would have been squarely on me, along with all the emotional scarring and other calamities spoken of by experts.
I do not presume that all situations were like mine. Luckily, unlike Ashley, there was no violence, only love. I am quite sure that if I had known at the time that what we were doing was supposed to scar me for life then it would have. But because I was not exposed to the outrage and persecution of public scrutiny, and there was no force, threats or coersion, then I believe the affect was no different than if we were the same age.
I am also sure that many of you have probably formed the opinion that this is probably why I am the way I am, not particular about the sex of the person I love. That I cannot conclude for myself. Personally, I think my present condition is a fruit of my entire life, not just that small six-month episode.
Again, IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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... that you're right: what saved you was your innocence and the lack of violence (was love really present? I doubt it). Ashley, I don't know how old you were; but even if you were "innocent" in that sense, the violence made it doubly unacceptable. You must be right, that inter-generational sex just isn't on, even if on occasion the "victim" is, like Charlie, lucky enough to escape without scars.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
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... First, let me make it unequivocably clear that I do NOT support intergenerational relationships. I do not agree with them, and I do not defend them ... ever! But Ashley had an experience which is not statistically typical - in any event it wasn't consensual. I support Ashley's views 100% in relation to his own experiences. I suppose that what I am trying to say is simply that in seeking to punish the perpetrators of consensual intergenerational relationships the priority should be the welfare of the victim, not the punishment of the perpetrator. The law has many facets; much can be done to deter reoffending without dragging a victim through the courts and traumatising them for life. Apart from the example quoted above, I have no real personal experience of the problem, other than the fact that I was photographed nude at the age (I think) of 12. I quite enjoyed it at the time, but very quickly began to worry that someone I knew might see the photographs. In the event, no-one ever did. Looking back, I'm pretty well unscarred by the experience (I have seen two of my photographs - in black and white - on current internet sites, but it's so long ago it no longer matters). No-one raped me. No-one even hurt me. But I'm pretty sure that being identified as a victim in legal proceedings would have wrecked my life. I guess that all I am trying to say is that it's a subjective, rather than an objective, issue, and that there is no single 'right' answer.
Love thinketh no evil ... but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth ....
Believe me, St. Paul wasn't wrong!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I have not been abused and have not to the best of my knowledge met someone who has been abused so I may be a bit naieve in this but I think the only thing we can give people who have been abused is a lot of love, understanding and mabey a shoulder to cry on but most importantly is to be there FOR them, to listen and not judge. Perheps help them get their feeling of safty back. but then again this is only me with my small to no understanding in the subject.
Love,
gil
Searching for the light at the end of the bed...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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We think we know the people around us, what
they have been through, what their lives are
like. If we could see behind their eyes, we might
be shocked at the abuse, physical or emotional
that has made them the way they are.
You're absolutely right, Gil. The only way to
help is to offer faith and trust and truth and
love with open, understanding arms.
smith
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I have a very good friend who is a generation older than his life partner. Is this wrong?
Which reminds me. Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones?
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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No Message Body
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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No Message Body
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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32 and 16. and yes legal
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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... both because there was obviously no coercion and it was legal. Very different from the illegal case of Charlie at 11, even though there was no coercion there either. It seems he was "saved" by the fact that it never reached public/official ears. But we're moving here towards a topic where we've been more than once before - "permissible" age difference. I don't feel like starting that one up again!
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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I have not said anything on this thread because it is a subject that I have been very much sheltered from, which is probably a good thing.
However, a 16 yr old dating a 32 yr old is wrong. To me, it seams like it is more about fulfulling the sexual fanticies of the older one than anything else. They may be sexually compatible, but how about mentally? I am interested in different things in 32 than 16. It seams to me that the older one may be running the relationship as he as most of the life skills. I guess there are a few types of personalities that may be compatible, but if it is just about sex, then I think it is morally wrong.
I would be interested in hearing more about this relationship.
Darren
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 92
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as nearly all cross generational relationships are which invlove kids 16 n younger!
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 92
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to see and stress heer on this board, that there is NO excuse for exploitation.
Some may have not disliked what has been done to them, but they are not THE victims per se. I think it is the "Ashley " type ( forgive me lil one for using your name to generalize), who is not so uncommon as well all think! I think we can juse make a difference by CLEARLY distancing ourselves from any kind of exploitation and as smith and Gil said offer open arms for any victim that may come along!
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Morality varies from place to place and from person to person. What you may deem moral another may deem immoral. For instance my mother believes that homosexuality is about as immoral as it gets. Her oldest son (me) would have to view himself as a demon if he thought like her on that issue. There are acts that are almost universally accepted as being immoral. One of them is adult sexual activity with minors. Nearly every community has established laws to protect children from adults who would prey on them. However, the standards vary from community to community. Since such laws are generally based on the community standard of morality, it may be considered moral in some places for a 32 year old to have sex with a 16 year old while in other places it would be considered immoral (and probably illegal). Where I live there are quite a number of persons belinging to a religion that accepts polygamy (having more than one wife) as being moral. The community, however, has made this practice illegal because the community believes that it is immoral. Without being judgemental, I generally would advise a person to follow the law when the law is more restrictive than their own sense of morality and to follow their own sense of morality when morality is more restrictive than the law. And I almost always advise person not to try to inflict their own sense of morality upon others when it is not in conflict with the law.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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I don't see why this is even being brought up, two people's relationship is their own business. Whatever their reasons, they're in love. I can see if someone is protecting a minor, but it's already been stating this is a 16yo. Why automatically assume that the 32yo is only out for sex? You may not agree with the relationship, but it is *theirs* alone. Why bring it public to this board! Did you have their explicit permission to do so? If they come here, no doubt they will figure out it's them being discussed. Who are any of you to judge someone else's relationship and the morality of it. Why not leave well enough alone, let them enjoy being in love, instead of condemning two people who are most likely in love? Would you be as upset if the people involved were 38 and 42?
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I think each situation has to be handled differently. Certainly that is apparent in the two totally different cases already discussed about Ashley and myself. But I do think that there is one item that must be present in any type of counseling to a person who has suffered abuse (of any type) and that is to not attach a stigma. To me that just amplifies any pain or hurt that may be present. Of course, the person abused cannot be treated any differntly than prior to knowledge of the event(s). I think that is really the most important point I can make. It seems all too often that the victim is treated differently, thereby amplifying the violation. Don't trivialize what happened, but then help the victim to realize that they really aren't any different from what they were before. And love is the key. If you truly cared for the person prior to knowledge of the event, then do not change or think differently. And make sure that they know that your feelings toward them have not changed.
Hugs, Charlie
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I am assuming that your post is directed at everyone who has been discussing this issue because I did not bring this up. I only commented on an already ongoing discussion about intergenerational relationships and morality. However, you have replied to my post so I must assume that at least some of your comments are directed at what I said. I took great pains NOT to be judgemental in my post. I limited my comments to a discussion of morality and legality and how they vary from place to place. For instance you seem to indicate that a 16 year old is not a minor. Perhaps where you are from this is the case. Where I live, the age of majority is 18 so a 16 year old IS still a minor. That relationship would be illegal where I live. The person who mentioned the relationship stated it is legal where they live. That helps to illustrate my point about how moral standards differ in different communities.
As for who are we to judge someone else's relationship and the morality of it? Well, we are all human beings. We have the ability to form our own beliefs and opinions. We each have developed our own moral standards and the ability to apply those standards. We have the right to approve or disapprove of the actions of others according to our own values. We have the right to say we approve or disapprove. We DO NOT as indivduals have the right to IMPOSE those values upon others.
Now, for the record, I will state my position on the matter. First I have no objection to a nonsexual, nonexploitive, nonabusive relationship between an adult and a minor unless the minor's parents object. Second I believe that any sexual, abusive, or exploitive relationship between an adult and a minor is immoral. Third I have no objections to any nonabusive, nonexploitive relationship between consenting adults regardless of age. Notice that I have used the terms 'adults' and 'minors.' I have not used specific ages. If the above relationship were here in my community I would consider it immoral. It would also be illegal. Since the relationship is in a community where it is legal (I am assuming that the 16 year old is not a minor) I have no problem with it.
Think good thoughts,
e
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Well, first Charlie told about his first encounter, then someone asked an Intergenerational Query  .
Rhetorical what?
Seriously, Charlie - you've given me so much to think about, and obviously others as well. Kanga up there (oh, btw, Welcome, Kanga, if you are new?) didn't appreciate that a real relationship was being discussed - although no names or personal details were mentioned - but to me, real people and their real relationships and experiences are why I come here. Maybe I'm just naive or unworldly or self-doubting, but I'd rather hear something concrete to get me thinking - something I can relate to - rather than hear opinions or dry debate. You know what they say about opinions.
Just IMHO, of course, I know some of you are intellectuals and born debaters. Master Debaters? Ohh, I AM tired.
So, I'm glad for the diversion. There was some thoughtful Support replies, too, which was very practical since we all seem to want to help others.
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Michael Simon
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 92
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..better be stricter with moral once, which may save a kid from exploitation. And one kid saved is worth the strong laws and morals!
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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So we JUDGE people now, do we?
This is aimed not at the specific poster, but at ALL who dare to sit in judgement over matters of the heart.
You know nothing about the situation, nor about the people concerned and yet so many opinions are flying around.
I admit I am more than upset by the hostility shown here. I can say that I had thought better of each and every one who has sat in moral judgement knowing no facts at all.
it is neither moral nor immoral. It is two happy people deeply in a committed and loving relationship with parental approval on both sides.
By the way, no-one gets to hear more than that about this relationship except from the mouths of the peole concerned. And I am certain that each of them will be horrified to see this judgemental barrage.
I am more than tempted to delete the entire thread, except I see more value in leaving it here as a shining example of how not to behave.
Again this is not aimed at the poster to whom I am replying. It is aimed at all who dare to judge a young man and his somewhat older partner.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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Well said e .... thank you very much for your reply and input, I appreciate it very much. You are right, here 16 is the legal age. I am not imposing my views on anyone and yes the statement was directed to everyone, no one in particular. Nor was I being judgmental. For myself, I believe what I've stated. This is my own belief and others are free to think what they do. I don't see that it's anyone else's business. I certainly wouldn't want my relationship spread out on a public message board for all to condemn and criticize to their heart's content simply because of the age of myself and my partner, even if our names weren't stated. Simply put, what two people who are in love, partners...decide to do in the privacy of their own home is entirely up to them. I am assuming neither partner is being abused by the other. If such is the case, leave them to their privacy.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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Tim,
I would have thought, that as a GBLT community we suffer enough being judged by the straight community. When judging happens within our own community how can we possibly fight those together who condemn us the most?
Thank you for the interesting thread. I too am disappointed to see what has happened. I do hope you understand that my comment wasn't implied to be judging. Merely requesting that people just leave them be, as two people in love should be left. In private.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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Thank you for the welcome. Where do I say I don't appreciate they are a real couple? I have stated that they are a couple that no matter what the age difference, deserve to be in love, and should be left to their own privacy.
Thank you very much.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I am speaking privately with those who have caused harm. IN some cases I am risking a friendship, but I would risk ANY friendship rather than see a person in need hurt in any way. I do not categorise your posts as harmful.
Those who caused the harm are also welcome. It is their behaviour I am quarrelling with, not their presence.
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Frankly, I would have thought that all participants and lurkers alike on this board would have already had their fill of other people moralizing on theirs and anybody else's feelings and emotions, long before ever coming here for the first time seeking shelter from such judgmentality.
As Mihangel has (rightly) pointed out, we have already been down the "how old is old enough" road before; but for the "benefit" (?) of those who have only started coming here since then and haven't read the back pages, I'd like to repeat a point which (as I recall) I made back then. Let's suppose the "age of majority" in the mythical kingdom of West Podunk is 18. Two people (of whatever sex or sexual orientation) legitimately fall in love and have sex. One is 18 years and 1 day old, and the other is 17 years and 364 days old. Since one of the participants was under 18, would that be enough to brand their relationship as immoral? I would think (nay, hope!) not (or, as Mr. Bumble says in "Oliver Twist": "If the law assumes that, then the law is a ass!").
Every person is different, and every case is different. I don't know how long the relationship Tim brings up has been going on, but it would seem to me that this 16 year old had the emotional and intellectual maturity necessary to enter into this relationship with a man twice his age and make it work (just as, it would also seem to me, this man has as well). This, of course, is not to say that every 16 year old is so blessed, but for that matter neither are a lot of 32 year olds. When it comes down to positive emotional support (even in a loving relationship) on one hand and no support at all on the other hand, I think the choice is clear.
It is so easy for society to paint things with a broad brush, and write laws based on such generalities, no matter how ultimately detrimental to society they are (so-called "zero tolerance" laws are a good example of that). Look, for example, at how all these pedophile priests are automatically branded as gay, even in the face of all these studies that continue to prove conclusively most pedophiles are in fact str8. Then there is what is paradoxically called in the USA the "Defense of Marriage Act" which denies two homosexuals the right to marry each other, an idea concocted by insecure lawmakers obviously involved in already shaky marriages who feel the threat to their own marriage comes not from within, but from another couple's marriage (especially, God forbid, a gay couple). And let us not forget those adoption laws in Florida, written by these fools who make a big to-do over presenting themselves as being "pro-family", and yet would do everything in their power to break up a family (no matter how loving that family is) just because both parents happen to be the same sex.
This is what happens when misguided morality is allowed to guide public policy; and I would have thought (nay, hoped) that everybody here would be sensitive enough to it to avoid engaging in such judgmental behavior.
Charlie, I think, brings up several all-too-true facts about the way society treats such matters (and others, as well). They're so hell-bent on punishing the perpetrator (or so they like to make it seem); and yet they ignore the needs of the victim, even going so far as to stigmatize the victim and place all the blame for what happened on him. How twisted is that?
Ashley, having said all this, may I hasten to add that this is definitely not directed at you (or at anybody, for that matter), and my heart goes out to you and everybody else who has ever suffered anything like that. It's just that I don't feel that's really what this thread was meant to be about.
Remember how Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged"? Well, in closing, allow me to pass along something which does even that one better. It comes from a very wise, very caring and very sensitive young man who only recently began participating on this board (and I hope I'm not embarrassing him by mentioning this!) who told me he has it posted next to his computer: "If you judge people, you have no time to love them."
I think that says it all.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Thank you
Think good thoughts,
e
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Sorry, smith - I don't know how, but I missed your post when it was made. I wasn't deliberately ignoring it!
No, I am very definitely NOT saying that in the circumstances you describe the child is a willing victim. Like Mihangel, I don't want to revive the insoluble argument about the appropriate age of consent, but I am a convinced opponent of intergenerational relationships (by which I mean, and have always meant, relationships in which one party is an adult and the other is a child; if both are adults the age difference is no-one's business but their own). I think that in the vast majority of instances such relationships are harmful to the child. As in all aspects of life there are exceptions to this generalisation, but the risks are so great that the exceptions do not - at leat in my view - justify any moderation of my opposition in principle.
The reservations in my previous post are concerned solely with the way in which society reacts when such relationships come to light. Banner headlines describing 'evil monsters' and 'vicious perverts' simply fan the flames. I am NOT defending or justifying the part played by the adult - the point I am seeking (obviously inadequately!) to make is simply that the welfare of the child is paramount, and his (or her) life should not be torn apart in our zeal to punish the offender. Here in the UK, the law gives the Courts a good deal of discretion to limit the freedom of sex offenders without bringing their victims into court. In the case I described, the trial of the offender was clearly much more traumatic for the victim than the relationship which gave rise to it.
What, then, should be society's priority in an ideal world - the punishment of the offender or the welfare of the victim?
In the UK - and, I suspect, in much of the USA - the first alternative seems to be of paramount concern. I disagree. Does this make sense to you?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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If you have QUESTIONS, please place them under this thread 
and I agree with you 100% 
<b> YES Darren it is morally wrong!!!! </b> 
Re: And HOW did we get diverted from VICTIM SUPPORT? 
Judgement is interesting 
Re: And HOW did we get diverted from VICTIM SUPPORT? 
