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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Behind the scenes people write to me. One such perosn wrote to me after the huge condemnation of a large age gap between lovers as "always wrong". He is the younger in a relationship with an unusually great age gap and he is not particularly old.
He said he felt hurt and humiliated by the judgements being made. He felt worthless, a sex object, a fantasy, nothing more. And he resented that, for he has a fine brain and is not a sex object.
We discussed it, he and I. He is not hurt by what he sees to be reasonable caution about such a relationship. He was cautious as anythingbefore considering his own relationship. He realises that he is unusual and that the world would condemn the relationship out of hand without ever giving him a chance to explain his needs. And he saw that here. He saw judgement. Judgement against him, not against his older partner, but against him. And he was more than upset.
I saw his hurt.
Boxes such as this, once opened, cannot be closed. What can happen is that all who have made judgements rather than presented reasoned argument allowing for a small minority of such relationships to be valid, recognising that the vast majority can not be valid, can be told unequivocally that the judgemental attitude did harm and does harm. They can be asked to refrain from judgement and instead to contribute discussion.
This I have done. This each has reacted to well.
However, it was also and is also important for all of us to recognise that judgement has caused harm, and to hear clearly that whatever else we do here, we may not judge another person.
A while ago we expressed concern for one of our number who has isues with age group. We didn't judge him, or I hope we did not, but we over advised him. Each of us did that. But in this last case I saw judge, jury and executioner. Those I never wish to see again, hence my very serious warning to all of us.
We are people here whose role is to show that we may have differences but do not judge others for those differences. We must take great care, greater care, that those who lurk as well as those who post have their unseen needs met.
This matter is truly closed. The board will remain open. I have so far only removed a couple of daft posts and all the duplicates I can find, but I have not censored it, nor do I intend to censor it. I simply reserve the right to ensure that it stays open and free from judgemental posts or fights. And I will do everything in my power to ensure freedom as long as no-one abuses my trust by making judgements.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Whatever the words used, they hurt a person who did not deserve to be hurt. He had done nothing yet felt condemned. And no-one knew he could be hurt, was being hurt or was hurt.
I have had a person say to me "Have him write to me and I'll explain". Doubtless he will if he chooses.
It is not about grey areas, black areas or any other areas. It is about a young man who was hurt.
It is not about that awful concept of "boylove", but about a young man who was hurt.
It is not about intergenerational sex, but about a young man who was hurt.
That young man wrote to me in horror. Others who are lurking have not written.
Whatever else I stand for I stand for preventing young men from being hurt. When one is hurt ALL goes out of the window.
The apologies helped him. The further points being made, whether they are valid or not, do not help him. I have no interest in ther validity or in attempting to shoot the arguments down. Instead, and very simply, we will return this place to calm and quietude with discussions, not debates and not moral judgements on others.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Should do it by email.
You will have it.
I have said all I am going to say on the topic.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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I did email you, at length. All I got was a one-line reply saying look at the board, that will explain it. It didn't. So I posted my post.
But, like you, I will only too gladly say no more.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but an outpouring of what reads suspiciously like self-righteous self-justification is not an acceptable note upon which to end the matter.
Your initial reaction, and the vehemence with which you denounced those who, so far as I can see, did no more than express their legitimate and sincerely-held beliefs, was as hurtful as any comment previously made. Arguably your response was even more hurtful, because it was directed against individuals rather than principles.
I find it very hard to believe that a young person who is at least 16 and who is capable of evaluating and entering into a relationship with a 16-year age difference - a relationship to which, incidentally, I have not the slightest objection, moral or otherwise - is incapable of coping with the relatively innocuous expressions of disapproval which appeared here. I could be convinced otherwise, and e-mail might be a proper medium for that discussion.
But I don't accept that you have any MORAL justification for a posting which effectively says "I am right and that's the end of the matter, so let us hear nothing more about it on the board". I know it is your board, and that gives you the legal right to do as you choose, but I thought this community was more concerned with morality than with the letter of the law? That is why I feel my response belongs here and not in an e-mail.
John.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I would like to see a better "resolution" to this whole thing. As it stands, I see nothing preventing it from happening again - we do not have agreement and, perhaps more importantly, several regulars seem to strongly disagree with Tim's stance on this issue. Important because it is his board and his friends who are allegedly being hurt and hurting others.
If you are easily offended or if this thread is "too close to home," please stop reading now. I am not insensitive to personal feelings or insecurities - I have plenty of my own - but do think we should apply logic and fairness consistently and rationally (especially if we claim to be doing so) and I also believe some inaccurate statements were made.
Tim - If you are unwilling to discuss this further and truely believe the need to protect the feelings of a few individuals is the priority which outweighs all others, regardless of logic and fairness, please put a disclaimer at the top of the message board, something like "Please do not discuss issues of morality, of right and wrong, for it may offend some readers."
The two objectives of discussing any topic, "even hugely controversial ones" and truly being a "place of safety" seem to be somewhat incompatible, if all sides of a discussion are allowed. And, it isn't much of a discussion if we need to not say what we truly believe or include "of course there are exceptions" after every opinion. Or, maybe two boards are appropriate, one for controversial discussions, one for compassionate, unconditional support?
Where do we draw the line discussing issues? If we say it's wrong to try to have sex with 9 year olds, what if a sexually active 9 year old is reading? Rape?
> One such perosn wrote to me after the huge condemnation of a large age gap between lovers as "always wrong".
It was only relationships involving someone "underaged" that were labelled as wrong, not between "adults." What consistuted the grey line between the two was also discussed.
> He said he felt hurt and humiliated by the judgements being made. He felt worthless, a sex object, a fantasy, nothing more. And he resented that, for he has a fine brain and is not a sex object. He realises that he is unusual and that the world would condemn the relationship out of hand without ever giving him a chance to explain his needs. And he saw that here. . . . . Boxes such as this, once opened, cannot be closed.
There was no judgement against "him" or any specific PERSON. A general SITUATION was considered "morally wrong" by some. He has taken it much more personally than it was intended. We all know there are exceptions to every rule, and I'm sure we'd love to have him explain his needs here. But isn't it quite inevitable that his personal box will be opened - that he will have to deal with most people not understanding, and assuming what I believe is probably typical of these relationships (unhealtiness)?
> I saw his hurt.
For that I am very very sorry. If he had posted so we could understand his exception to the rule we could better understand him as an individual and his realationship. If ANYONE had given a case of a constructive young intergenerational experience, we could discuss "that side" of the issue and better educate ourselves.
> What can happen is that all who have made judgements rather than presented reasoned argument allowing for a small minority of such relationships to be valid, recognising that the vast majority can not be valid, can be told unequivocally that the judgemental attitude did harm and does harm. They can be asked to refrain from judgement and instead to contribute discussion.
People were only stating opinions. If the young man is truely emotionally ready for a healthy sexual relationship, I would think he would understand that this was a general, mostly theoretical discussion containing differing opinions, with no particular realationship being discussed, rather than personalizing everything.
> However, it was also and is also important for all of us to recognise that judgement has caused harm, and to hear clearly that whatever else we do here, we may not judge another person.
No "person" was judged - just a general situation.
> A while ago we expressed concern for one of our number who has isues with age group. We didn't judge him, or I hope we did not, but we over advised him. Each of us did that.
We WERE dealing with a person, not a "concept" - totally different.
> But in this last case I saw judge, jury and executioner.
Not at all - there was no "case" to be heard - no one declared punishment, no individual was punished. A better analogy would be lawmakers - trying to discuss a speed limit. Yes, some people can safely drive faster than the posted speed - there are exceptions.
Tim, I really don't see how you can be so absolute - calling people judgemental and hostile, assuming they would have the foresight to consider how every reader may feel - considering this was a general discussion about a grey issue. You are also an advocate of free speech and were on the receiving end of being accused of posting something that would hurt others not so long ago. Your comments to us WERE directed at specific people and seems truly judgemental.
Please please explain: Why did you bring of the subject in the first place and then supply a specific example with ages if you really didn't want it openly discussed? It is a morality issue, after all, and we do have opinions, and we are human (you've used that defense before) and we don't always phrase things exactly right or consider all the possible consequences? If that was a mistake, okay, can you admit it and say your sorry like the others?
I am very sorry if this stings, Tim, especially since you are a friend and we have so much in common even with very different personalities. In fact, I think I did a fair job of explaining how you have a special place in your heart for younger men just recently. But, I feel like I am seeing hipocrisy and I feel more strongly about "fairness" than anything we could ever discuss here.
If you drop this here I think it will just be a matter of time before it happens again. You are angry, some of us feel unrighteously scolded, even while being truly sorry for offending anyone. That doesn't foster discussion much, and I have learned so much here and have accepted opinions that I would have rejected a year ago, so this is a constructive, learning place that you've built us.
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