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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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We had a call from my son, 17 and at boarding school.
Half past midnight the police had spotted him taking a metre square roadsign for a walk and had given him a "lift" back to school in their van.
We expect a letter fomr his housemaster.
He has been gated (like grounded) for a week.
Why the heck did he let himself get caught?
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Probably acting on a dare from his mates, or maybe a brew too many. But unless this is part of a pattern, I do not think you have anything to worry about. Just one of the reasons why parents get grey hair from their kids. Punish him, and love him, and move on.
Hugs, Charlie
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Charlie, why should Tim's son be punished twice? That the school will look upon his action with disfavour I can understand; I think that Tim and his wife could make do with a finger-wagging (and possibly a reminder that the eleventh commandment is "thou shalt not get found out") 
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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"You stupid twat, why did you get caught?"
Oh and to ask him to play the sweet innocent boy for the rest of term and keep his nose clean.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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When I was a student we had a and of US slappers named "Fanny" come to play in the stiudents union. Crap, ugly and with zits all four "girls".
We went out and got a roadsign. A triangle with an exclamation mark in it, metre sides to the triangle. We brought it back, drilled holes in it, applied "Stage flying" gear to it, and flew it in above the band, and lit it with a follow spot.
The band's manager was not amused. Everyone else was.
I don't blame small(!) son at all!
Mind you we did our bit by van!
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Sorry to hear about your son. At least they took him back to school and not to jail. Your question of "Why the heck did he let himself get caught?" strikes me as a little odd. I think I would have asked "Why the heck did he do it in the first place?"
But let's look at your question. If he indeed let himself get caught, then that would imply intent to get caught. Why would a young man commit an act with such an intent? Having counseled juvenile delinqents for several years, I can tell you that it is not uncommon for them to want to get caught. There are many reasons for this but the two most common are attention and to cry for help. You said he is at boarding school so the first question to ask yourself is do you visit often enough (in his eyes, not yours)? When you do visit, what do you do? Do you go places, do things that he wants to do? You might even look at bringing him home. Look at his other recent behaviors and his grades. Is there any indication that he is anxious or depressed? Maybe he's homesick. Talk to him, the headmaster, the teachers, maybe even his friends. Find out if there is some underlying trouble he's experiencing and let him know you love him and are there to help him deal with it.
Next look at my question "Why the heck did he do it in the first place?" Is this an isolated incident or does it show a pattern of delinqent behaviors? Your reaction should be different depending on the answer. If it's isolated, show him you ove him, but don't bail him out. Be gentle and suportive, but firm. Let the law and the school deal with the behavior. It's important that he know that you love him, but will not accept such behavior. If it's a pattern, he will still need to know you love and support him, but you may need to be more involved with the punishment. Look at his friends. Is he hanging out with the wrong people? Are there drugs or alcohol involved? Is this the worst act he's committed or has he done worse? Is he suspected or impl,icated in other offenses even if there is no hard proof? Has he seen a counselor or therapist? If so you may want to become involved in the sessions with him. If not, think about getting him into therapy.
You need not post the answers here unless you are comfortable doing so. My intent is only to give you some questions to ask yourself as you begin to deal with this situation.
Think good thoughts,
e
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I didn't see your last two posts before I posted my response. Your first post sounded like this may be a rather serious situation, the last two sound more like a prank. My response may seem a bit harsh if it was only a prank, but some of the questions may still be valid.
Think good thoughts,
e
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I'm happy to say he was just being a kid.
We visit whenever he wants, and sometimes when we want. He ocmes home when he wants, too. Grades are straight As all down the line, and he chooses to do the work to get them.
It's pretty simple, really. He loves th eplace and the schooling he's getting, but it's a pressure cooker as well, and sometimes steam has to blow off.
And my reaction is simple. He has to get himelf out of any mess and get on with showing his housemaster he's a good citizen. HE has to do it, coz I'm not going to. The polie shocked him. Good. Now perhaps he'll keep his nose clean
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Why not indeed, so long as the pranksters are prepared to carry the can. Reminds me of long ago, when one morning Cambridge awoke to the unexpected sight of an aged Austin Seven sitting on the roof of the Senate House, perhaps 60 feet up. Engineering students had hoisted it with a scaffolding tripod, without damaging any stonework, in full public view, yet without being spotted (OK, they HAD removed the engine). It cost the university a mint to get it down; otherwise surely praiseworthy, and highly educational.
In those far-off days, with single-sex colleges, one had to be back in college, and all guests of either sex out, by midnight. The streets were patrolled not only by ordinary police but by the university police - the proctor in gown, mortar board and bands, accompanied by two bulldogs (porters) in bowler hats. Some colleges it was quite easy to climb in or out of. But ours was impregnable, except for a wrought-iron art deco gate of interlocking semicircles. The gaps were too small for any grown-up male, but could just admit a very slender female. One night in the small hours a group of blokes was assisting a lady guest out. She removed ALL her clothes, and they were feeding her through when the proctor and bulldogs appeared outside. The blokes inside ungallantly scarpered, leaving her stuck, starkers, half in and half out. And the proctor doffed his mortar board to her, bowed, said "Good night, ma'am", and went on his way.
I wasn't involved in either of those; but the party when the senior tutor was wrapped in a carpet and rolled down the front steps; or the undergraduate who was taken short and peed out of the window, not knowing the proctor was immediately underneath ... well, nuff said. Happy days.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Good for him and for you. Sounds like he's a pretty good kid all around. Teach him some better ways to blow off steam. Pranks don't always end up being harmless. I spent a night in jail for such a prank when I was in college. It was a dare to spend the night in a haunted house. Someone noticed we were there, called the Sheriff and we got arrested for trespassing. I didn't see any ghosts, but got the scare of my life as I srepped out of the house with a blinding light shining in my eyes. The only thing I could see was a rather large revolver pointed at my face. It seems the deputies at the scene didn't realize that we were just college students out for a night of fun. THAT cured me!
Think good thoughts,
e
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that I got twice as many when I got home. And my mother would say it was not punishment for whatever I did at school to merit the swat in the first place, but for embarassing her and the family by doing something wrong in the first place. But then I live in the U.S. where it is much less common to abrogate responsibility for raising the child to a boarding school. (Phew, I can hear the keyboards cranking up now)
Hugs, Charlie
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Charlie-
If any one country has abrogated responsiblity
of the raising of their children, the teaching
of their moral values, the total neglect of
their instructional lives, it isn't the boarding
schools in England. It is right here in the
United States.
I disagree with you that it is less common here.
It is prevalent here. We have classes in high
school to teach us how to have families, how to
fight bigotry, what to think about drugs. This
should all be taught at home. The American people
have abrogated responsibilty and turned on their
tv sets.
The difference as I see it between the US and
the British schools is that when these boys are
sent away to boarding school they quite possibly
have their values already engrained. We, on the
other hand, are expected to learn them on the
streets and at school. I'm not saying you. I'm
not saying me. I just mean, look around and see
all the millions of neglected US kids starved for
values, the difference between right and wrong...
simply that. Before we call the kettle black,
let's polish up the one we've got.
smith
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thought I would raise more hackles than that. Boarding schools vs (US) pulbic schools. Parents vs school officials. Something here has to get your creative juices flowing.
Hugs, Charlie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I take your point, smith, but it ain't all roses over here.
I have to admit that my left-wing political inclinations mean that I am a committed opponent of private education. I believe passionately in equality of opportunity, regardless of ability to pay. I DON'T believe that all kids should be treated equally, because manifestly they don't all have equal ability or learning potential. It follows that I don't oppose the principle of selection by ability - just selection by wealth. In any event, my principles kept my own kids in the local comprehensive school, where happily they were both straight-A students, which I suppose proves something, though I'm not quite sure what! Anyway, that's enough of the political diatribe. I'm afraid that the mere mention of boarding schools - which are almost exclusively in the private sector, although many are described as public schools - causes my hackles to rise. Nothing personal - just a considered position in principle.
All of which has nothing to do with the real reason for replying to your post! From a distance, it does seem that there's a lot wrong with American society, particularly in terms of bible-belt bigotry - a phenomenon which is very much less evident in the UK. That doesn't mean that the UK is a shining example to follow. Our society has degenerated in much the same way as you describe; we are fast becoming a culture in which responsibility is something which always devolves upon someone else. I agree entirely that social education is a parental responsibility, but the theory is difficult to apply in practice when so many parents are socially uneducated themselves.
Enough of serious issues! I confess that I revelled in irresponsible behaviour in my later teenage years, and the opportunities for collective irresponsibility at university were a challenge not to be missed. I loved every minute of it - kidnapping the local mayor and demanding a substantial ransom for charity was a logistic exercise of which the FBI would be proud - and yes, we did have the sense to check his sense of humour beforehand. Less praiseworthy, but just as satisfying, was the appropriation of a number of diversion signs, which were skilfully applied in channelling several hundred early-morning commuters into the grounds of a rival college. (Admittedly, the commuters were less amused, but hey, they got to be on the TV news that night!). And I am still the proud (if slightly embarrassed) possessor of a city-centre street nameplate 'liberated' under the noses of the guardians of the law. So (for once!) I agree with Tim. The only reprehensible feature of his son's behaviour was letting himself be caught!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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If we had a system like much of continental Europe, where subjects are weel touaght by teahcers who truly care, with high expectations and correct streaming and setting, with decent facilities, there would be no need for a private system, and I would have saved myself approximately £250,000.
the majority of parents struggle lik ehell to send their kids to private schools becuase of the crap enforced upon us by Harold Wilson and perpetuated by Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Smith before he popped his clogs and Blair (who sends his kids to the most exclusive school he can find that is just about a state school).
I don't deny that imbecilic governments under Heath, Thatcher and Major on the other side fialed to invest in state schooling.
As to "Abrogate responsibility", yes, some parents do. And their kids are the obvious ones. And some don't.
If our government gave us a decent school system with the ability to have selective schools and much else besides, including a decent wage for the teachers, then much would be changed.
Until then I pay TWICE. Once by chouce fomr a wallet that is perpetually empty, and again by taxation for soeone else's brats to sit in fron of an incompetent teacher, having their time wasted by a "National Curriculum" that is unweildy and full of paperwork and empty of teching.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I believe in teaching honesty and in teaching the concept that"If you own up you will be punished. If I find you out you wil be punished more."
One crime=one punishment. Period.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Would/will do ANYTHING to involve the police so god help me!
My dad would yell at me (trust me) the dude can yell. He would yell until he had to take another pill for his blood pressure which apparantly I'm responsible for. Might even slap me
that depends. That was a long time ago like last summer! HAHA
Josie
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AdamAnt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 74
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I wouldnt worry about it Tim, hehehe..
It was around 2 years ago I was taken to the police station and charged with.
- Assaulting A Police Officer
- Underage Drinking
- Destruction of Public Property
I got drunk on Scerri, and then climbed up a traffic light trying to take it off with a spanner. The cops pull up and when they grab my foot, i kicked one in the head by accident......
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First you say "If you own up you will be punished. If I find you out you will be punished more." then you say one crime=one punishment. I think what you are trying to say is tell me first, but if I find out before you tell me, it will be worse. Please correct me if I am wrong in the interpretation.
Now to my point. If your child, still under your roof and not out on his/her own, commits an act that may by illegal, but certainly is not accepted social behavior, and is caught by someone in position to impose punishment of some type, and you are informed, does your lack of correction enforcement in effect condone such behavior? Isn't the effect of condemning the detection of the behavior tantamount to endorsing the behavior, in other words, it's okay as long as you don't get caught?
I pulled my share of childhood pranks, some of which were harmless (toilet papering houses, etc.)and others that could cause harm (throwing eggs a moving cars, removal of traffic direction signs, etc). Some I got away with, others I did not. But I always understood that no matter what punishment may be meted out by authorities, my actions would be condemned severely when I faced my mother because that was not the way she wanted me to act.
The phrase "boys will be boys" has been used to condone many illegal acts, many of which that are extremely harmful and life altering to the victims. I will not allow my children to hear that phrase come from me, nor will I allow them to believe that I condone any action that they may take that is against the law or in conflict with societal standards. And to me, being angry because they were caught rather than the act itself is tacit acceptance of the act.
IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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"If I find out before you tell me and after I give you a chance to tell me, the sky will fall on your head."
As to my adding a punishment to a boy already punished, that is not natural justice. That is revenge.
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I agree, smith. The abrogation of responsibility for one's actions is just a prevelant here in the U.S. as it is anywhere else, maybe even more so. As our (U.S.) society evolves more and more towards "enlightenment" the movement is away from individual freedom and responsibility and more toward corporate and governmental regulation. The U.S. is more concerned about the rights of a select few individuals (the squeakiest wheel) than for the common good. And current legislation supports this by attempting to control and define individual responsibilities and conduct. All the time the government is bewailing the loss of the "family" they pass laws taking more and more responsibility for individual actions away from the individual and into society in general. Who should decide what a child is taught is school? Current policy is to teach only what the current powers that be determine to be best. We have learned from the past (U.S. v Stokes for example) and I do not see this trend reversing.
What can we do? I don't know, but I have never not voted in an election. Unfortunately, most in the U.S. cannot say that as evidenced by the lack of turnout and low numbers of ballots. Most seem to have ceded their responsibility for choosing their government just as they have ceded responsibility for raising their children.
IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Kids have a very black and white view of fairness. One crime, one punishment
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What is the difference between these two statements?
"Son, I am disappointed in you for taking something that does not belong to you. That goes against the principles that I tried to teach you growing up."
"Son, I am disappointed that you got caught taking something that does not belong to you. That goes against the principles that I tried to teach you growing up."
When I made my original post I did not try to tell you how to punish or that you should be the one to mete out the punishment. Punishment should fit the circumstances. But to let it pass without comment, or condone it by saying "you shouldn't have been caught" does nothing to educate a young person between right and wrong.
IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The police told him what he did was wrong. His housemaster punished him. When he needs support, whom then doe she turn to? His father who then says "Right, you little shit, I am going to beat the crap out of you"? I think not.
I did the same as he. In all conscience I cannot punish him for doing as I did. And I will absolutely not punish him a second time. He has received his punishment, by the people I am paying to be in loco parentis who have asked me if I approve of the punishment. I approve. I next see him on Friday. Am I to punish him then?
"Well, son, it WAS a week ago, and you have already been punished by the school. Now it is my turn." I think not. But perhapos his mother should also do it, and his grandmother too. And because theft goes against the 10 commandments should I get the minister in to see him? Maybe he should burn in hell?
Or maybe one crime=one punishment is sensible.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I think you have to look at the crime and the punishment as well. In this case the crime is not that serious and the kid's record is a good one. Tim can support the punishment meted out by the school. In doing so he is sending his son the message that what he did is wrong. He need do no more unless he feels the punishment is not sufficient. If that was the case he could add to it. Another important lesson that kids can learn is that they are answerable to more than one authority. Those authorities can get together and decide on one punishment or they can act individually. That is up to the authorities involved.
I would agree, though with those who argue that there is a difference between the message that "you shouldn't have gotten caught" and "what you did was wrong." A parent can tell a child that what the child did was wrong while still being supportive of the child. "I love you, but I disapprove of your actions" is a valid statement.
When looking at whether punishment is appropriate the most important thing is to know what you want to accomplish. Do not punish because you are angry or have a need for revenge. Punishment should come with the intent to deter future incidents. It is sufficient if it does so. Punishment loses effectiveness when it is consistently too harsh.
Think good thoughts,
e
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There are so many shades of punishment, from the disapproving look (that all parents learn) to physical to capital punishment. I agree with both Tim and e, the punishment should fit the punishable action. And, Tim, I agree that in this case any punishment meted out by his house master is sufficient. But have you not made comment to him about the event? Was that comment made to condone what he did or to indicate that such behavior is not acceptable in the future?
Hugs, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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...between a stupid jape, a prank and high spirits, and a major offence.
He was worried about our reaction when he phoned. That was sufficient for idiocy. He didn't receive absolution, but he didn't receive damnation either. And he was able to leave the call with a light heart. And to know that his dad was a fool as well.
All of this is important, not least the being able to finish with a light heart.
But the point you raise is worthy, which is why I have started another thread to capture it
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tim - the canuck
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Getting started |
Location: Canada
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 14
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Tim, Glad to see Alex had a good time in his outing, to bad he was caught. I am glad to see the school reacted properly and did not go over board.
In this case parents should stay out of it except perhaps to show their displeasure - but nothing more. Double punishment is not necessary and your son probably learnt a lesson (be more careful and don't get caught). This is all part of a teenager growing up and blowing off steam - as you all know the a teenager's life is not that easy any more and they need to test the system and blow off some steam - double punishement would have just cause resentment and as a parent you would lose you childs trust.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Just remember that my educational background is Scottish, not English, and thus by definition superior!
Comprehensive education is not of itself an unworkable concept, though I personally don't favour it. But the (English) tripartite system which it replaced was equally far from perfection. It's all very well to be nostaligic for the good old grammar schools - I am myself - but the secondary moderns didn't do anyone any favours. The problem - under both right and left wing governments - seems to be an inability to stand aloof from the theorists and listen to the experienced practitioners. What matters - and here I agree with you - is sensitive and flexible streaming and setting. Chucking everyone into the same pot is as daft as the discredited theories of communism. You can't make everyone equal, because we aren't born that way, but you CAN give everyone an equal opportunity. To me, a system which delivers better quality education to those able to pay for it is totally abhorrent. I am in the fortunate position of having an income sufficient to pay for private education, but (unlike many of our political leaders) I cannot compromise the principles in which I so firmly believe. So my kids went through the state system, fortified with parental support, encouragement and guidance (when called for) and have thrived in it. Whether they will take the same view when (if) they have families of their own is their decision, not mine, but I like to think they have inherited something of my family's historic left-wing zeal!
Now, if you'll excuse me, I must dash off to organise another revolution. Bye!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... because I find myself agreeing completely with Tim, and that's very disconcerting. C'mon Charlie, lighten up! There's a huge difference between a prank and a crime, even if the prank is technically illegal (and always supposing that it doesn't do anyone any real harm). I believe there's a technical term for the distinction - it's called a sense of humour!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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If I do something wrong and you hit me, it won't
make me repent......just make me afraid of you.
If I do something at school, I want my family to
fuss but understand that I'm a good kid, I just
messed up.
One crime = One punishment...over and I love you!
Plus, dang Charlie, you keep making me feel so
guilty,I'll have to give back my prized I75 sign
"removed" during a very successful scavenger hunt.
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Sorry about the blank one.
Sounds like normal kid stuff, how hard do you think you should be on the "stealing" issue. That is something i feel quite strongly about, though i would take into account the fact that there was no victim. Kinda tough call .... is the week enough? I don't really know.
As for gettin caught, dumb thing to do. Hope he learns that on his own.
Sorry, not much help on that one.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Cossie! You agree with me! Wow!
Mind you , it isn't really controversial, is it?- kids are kids
- kids are naughty
- naughtiness sometimes borders on stupidity
- the person in authority over the child at the time is the one to punish
- Anyone else punishing is merely seeking to exercise undue control
- kids should be naughty anyway
- one crime = one punishment
- The Mikado, all sublime
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Yes, it was a childish prank thingy.
AND, I was a twat and Let Myself Get Caught.
I wasn't the first of us who got picked up by the police though, a friend of a friend was the first, and he kindly pointed me out as I walked up the dark street at night (I could have taken a back road and they'd never found me).
What we did? Wee-eelll...
A friend had keys to our school. His sister worked as an assistant teacher, and his father was also a teacher there. We snuck in there one night and nicked some chips and stuff out of a cupboard. Unfortunately, we also turned on the lights in a room with skylight windows in the ceiling, which I guess someone spotted and reported.
As we came out, the police were there, waiting for us, but we surprised them too. They expected us to run, which we did not since we didn't see them at first (dunno how that could surprise anyone, but hey, the people in my former home town are pretty stupid). Well, one of us DID see them and we ran like hell all of us. And I got caught later, and my adoptive father had to come get me at the police station... Haha. That wasn't fun!
And next day was even less funner when my adoptive mother found out... But at least all charges against us were set aside for five years, and then cleared if we kept our noses clean (which we did). We didn't get probation; it never even went to court. So no dual punishment there either. And, we bought new stuff to replace that which we ate too, so overall I don't feel like a juvenile delinquent. (Did I get that right? Difficult word.)
First time I tell anyone this, I think... We were so totally embarrassed by it all. Yeech.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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getting arrested and put on probation, and facing the rents. Which is exactly what I have been saying. Lenny, you feel the probation and no fun with the rents was sufficient. So do I, if the behavior is not repeated. As I posted before, punishment does not have to mean a spanking, a chewing out, grounding, jail, whatever. As long as the point is communicated, then the lesson is, hopefully, learned.
Hugs, Charlie
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resulted in an accident where someone was hurt or killed (it has happened). Is the action so minor then?
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Well, I did specify that the prank shouldn't cause anyone any real harm. But - on a wider point - danger lurks everywhere. We need to learn to live with it. Yes, we should do what we can to minimise it, but life becomes pretty sterile if we take the thing too far. Most of the ponds around where I grew up have been filled in 'to protect children from the risk of drowning'. These weren't swimming ponds - just places to catch newts and sticklebacks. Kids can't do that any more. Shall we fell all the trees within a mile of family housing just in case a kid climbs one and falls and breaks his (her?) neck? I think not! But I do accept that there is a difference between humour and stupidity, and I would not defend a student stunt that thoughtlessly placed anyone at risk.
Huuuugs!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Sounds like a typical teenager to me. 
Fond memories 
Excuse me.... 
Ooo! That's a bit strong! 
Me Too...... 
