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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I suppose I've got to start by apologising for lurking without posting for so long. A quick scan of the archive reveals that apart from a brief flurry last August, it's fifteen months since I was a regular contributor. Even the names seem to have changed since then! I HAVE been lurking, though, and I'm still on Tim's mailing list. Trouble is, I've been spending so much time travelling that I'm knackered by the time I have an opportunity for surfing. On top of that, the cut-and-thrust of debate (I prefer the thrust, personally!) seems to have gone from the board. Shame! I never could resist the opportunity to disagree with someone!
In any event, here I am, and what brings me back is 'The Story of Tim'. I have read it - twice - and have given myself three days to think it over. I still feel as I did at first reading, and it worries me. I feel the need to be serious, and - for me - that's something of a novelty.
First of all, let me say that I have always opposed censorship, and that I neither wish to oppose nor to suppress S/M. It isn't my bag, but I have betes-noir a-plenty, and I am in no position to criticise the sexual preferences of others. I confess that I found parts of the story intensely erotic. I cannot imagine deriving pleasure from suffering pain, nor from inflicting it upon others - even at their wish - beyond the level described rather aptly in the story as 'wanky-spanky'. On the other hand, there's a good deal of the voyeur in my make up - in the literal sense of 'watcher', not implying any sort on non-consensual secrecy. The thought of a gorgeous teen 'presenting' and performing for me is almost too much to cope with. For some reason, mowing the lawn naked seemed especially erotic!
I don't deny that the S/M community has a right to its own erotic literature, and as erotic fiction in that context, the story is pretty unobjectionable. But it isn't IN that context here, and in the more general context of teen gay literature I do have an objection to it. Looking at the plot objectively, I wouldn't deny that the story could be true, though it would be very exceptional. But then, that's true of lots of teen romances; miracles DO happen, but nothing like as often as we pretend they do.
I don't even take issue with the broad assumptions underlying the story. The phenomenon of abuse leading to the desire - conscious or otherwise - for further abuse is well-documented. I doubt whether a child abuse victim of Tim's apparent intellectual and perceptive ability would react in the way described, particularly as regards the suppression of his earlier abuse, but what the hell, this is fiction.
The point is, redemption COULD happen as described, but the results could equally easily be disastrous. S/M is potentially a dangerous game, and it isn't subject to rigorous rules. The sadism can override the masochism, particularly where there is an age difference on the scale described. Kids have died proving the point.
Those who are strongly drawn to S/M will find it, as we can all find our niches if we try hard enough. I just don't think it belongs on this site. Tim (our host, not the Tim of the story!) has rightly described his messageboard and site as a place of safety. It's a place where teens can discover that they are far from alone, where adults who never had the chance to find their true selves as teenagers can do so vicariously, and where those who - like me - did, but loved and lost, can, by proxy, return to those 'blue remembered hills'; those 'happy highways where once I walked but cannot come again'. (The quote is from A. E. Housman, if you're curious!)
S/M is NOT safe, and does not belong in 'a place of safety'. The fault is not in the story, but in its location. It does not enhance this site, it diminishes it. Tim, please think again.
If anyone wishes to e-mail me, I promise to reply, though you may have to wait a few days, but I think it would be no bad thing to pursue the issue in public on the board, if Tim will let us do so, and if anyone cares enough to respond.
To close with an enigmatic thought: I see from Tim's current poll that rimming is 50% more popular among practicing gays than among gay-orientated virgins. Now I reckon that rimming (as a giver, more than as a receiver) is the closest I have come to Heaven, and certainly the greatest expression of love I have ever given. I have never experienced S/M. Is this significant?
Cossie XLIV.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Please do tell Jack Rowan what you feel about the story, he is by no means certain to come here to see the pints you and others wil make unless he knows what you feel.
I do understand all reservations anyone has about S&M. In some ways that was half the point of hosting this story, which I knew would not be universally popular. there is a stroing message in it about the dangers of such practices, though not an explicit one.
There was something about this tale, though, that transcended the apparent scene of S&M and showed something more, something cleaner. It's location, howver safe or unsafe is not in this messagebaord, but is on the site itself.
Here is certainly a valid forum for discussing it, for discussing the true and finite risks involved, and for discussing the benefit or otherwise of the story per se.
So, why did I host it? I am not into S&M, nor into pain. I am against all forms of child abuse. I am not in favour of adult/child sexual relationships. This story breaks all my rules.
To put it simply, I was speaking in depth to a couple of people when I read this story first. I rread it ion the recommendation of another who told me "it is not as it seems" and I read it with scepticism, and to an extent mounting horror, especially in the early stages. As I read it, I saw indirect parallels in the lves of those to who I was talking.
One had been abused, the other was a slave in an alleged master/slave relationship. I will not give anything away about either of those people. What I can say is that it gave me an additional insight into being able to speak top them clearly about their experiences and to understand their individual and unique needs. I was able to be a better friend because I had read it.
Please understand, anyone who feels that sado-masochistic practices are safe and glorious that they are not either of those things. A very great deal of trust is required by each person involved, and things can go badly physically and psychologically wrong, not just for the perosn receiving pain, but (and Jack has another tale I will not be hosting) for the giver, perhaps especially psychologically for the giver.
I have not hosted this story not this author for titillation, though I accept that there wil be people who find it titillating. Those people will have found the story anyway, on Nifty. Instead I have hosted it to cause thought.
I welcome your post, the more so since it is a temperate argument against the decision I made to host the story. I will welcome furtehr posts by others too. Woudl ask simply that each poster has read the entire story before reaching a position where they will post, and that they include Jack in their message.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Hi, Tim!
Yes, I had already e-mailed Jack Rowan, commenting on the story (to which, as I said, I have no intrinsic objection) and directing his attention to my posting.
My unease is wholly related to your decision to host the story here - with respect (tugs forelock) (no, no, foreLOCK, you fool!) I don't think you can dissociate the board from the site. If the board is truly a place of safety, the site must follow the same criterion.
I do have an answer to your comments about specific individuals of your acquaintance, but I'll save it in the hope that my original posting provokes some debate.
Incidentally, I think I was the xenophobe who prompted Mihangel's new story - I'm off to make a cringing e-mail apology! I think you know me well enough to know that I would never intentionally offend anyone - especially someone as sensitive, perceptive and imaginative as Mihangel. After all, he can't help being one of those inferior Southern Celts!
Be Happy! Huge Hugz!
John.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I'd very much like more debate on the story. So, I hope, would Jack.
I agree that it can seem difficult to separate the board from the site. I will simply make a sound counter argument.
Unlike almost all other S&M stories, Tim is safe, and is in safe hands. His step mother chose those safe hands for him. His master is a man who, were I into S&M, I would choose as a master, for he knows his duties to his slave, and he knows that those duties far exceed those of his slave to him. Tim has the (for him) delicious feeling of being "unsafe" and at his master's total mercy, knowing it to be an illusion under his control.
It is this illusion that allows me to host the story "here", and that illusion that allows me to feel comfortable with the story itself, despite some very uncomfortable moments while reading it.
What I do NOT want, and what I am very glad you have pointed out, is for people to think "This looks fun, let's have a go". The place the story is hosted has a very clear warning before you even click the story.
At the point of clicking to see the story you get: This is very different from the other stories on this website. I sought Jack out and asked if I could host it. He was concerend about the radical departure this story is from the others on the site, and gave permisison provided I had thought deeply. I have thought deeply.
After you click that oyu get: This story is very special. Many people will say to me, "This has no place on this site." To those of you who say that, I ask you to read it carefully, from start to finish. I have no way of changing any dogmatic opinions you have, I simply ask you to read properly.
To me, to those with whom I talked before hosting this story, which I have wanted to host for some long time, the tale is not as it seems. It looks very much like a tale of a man seducing a boy. Read literally it could be seen to be that. And yet, beneath the surface, it shows the very great love and trust that a boy has for a man who has very clear morals. It is not a "boylove" story. Rather it is the way a boy allows himself to cleanse his soul of things past and to forge a great future.
There are disturbing elements in the story. Deeply disturbing elements. It is a story about power, used and abused. But in the end, whose is the power?
Hosting this story is not the start of a trend. It is "against my rules", this story. And I have considered long and hard before hosting it here. It is most unlikely that any other stories on this theme will live on this site.
Jack Rowan has very kindly given me permission to host it here. The copyright is Jack's. His also are the warnings above the first section. Please read them and take note of them.
And above the story you get: This story includes descriptions of sexual relations between an adult man and a teenage boy, including bondage and SM. If the law in your jurisdiction says that you're too young to be reading this, then I suggest very strongly that you should obey the law. People who are likely to be offended by the subject matter are respectfully advised not to read it.
Please note: This is fiction. In real life, sexual relationships between adults and teenagers almost always lead to exploitation and physical or emotional damage, and cannot be condoned. In addition, I should point out that none of this happened, and none of the people in the story exist. At least, not unchanged.
There's no sex - well, not much - in the first two parts. Later, it gets quite heavy, although always consensual. If you dislike the idea of SM involving teenagers, then this is not the story for you.
I have never seen a story with three warnings before.
I suspect this will be reflected in another post from another reader, the warnings etc.
I would really like to open this up to other people. There is a grave danger of a tennis match between us, with one of those tedious baseline rallies that Bjorn Borg was so "good" at. Each of us has a fine slog, and a good return, and neither is likely to make an unforced error. I don't dispute your points, I simply disagree. but I do like the way you put them.
I don't say that to patronise. Too few people can debate, as other places on the net show.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First - and acknowledging the irrelevance - the phrase I use in the subject line above - 'A Warning to the Curious' -sprang to mind as apt, but I'm damned if I can remember where it comes from. I THINK it's the title of a ghost story by either Algernon Blackwood or Ambrose Bierce, or just possibly M. R. James. It's really irritating me, so if you can help, please put me out of my misery!
Moving on to the substantive issue, I accept that there is little point in launching an elegant debate between Tim and myself; we can both think of better ways to abuse ourselves! I DO have other arguments, and I hope that others will join in and give me the opportunity to put them forward. For now, I just want to comment on the warnings - and thanks, Ron, for your contribution above.
In a sense, I am by profession a 'fixer'; it is my function to convince disparate factions that I have the best possible solution to whatever problem is in issue. I do this even more in certain areas of my non-professional life. OK, I am a bit of a political animal, too. I felt an affinity with the Tim of the story in the closing sections when he is described as a manipulator. I have always seen myself in that role, and I know that I can do it well.
This self-promotion is just to underline the point I seek to make - if I wanted young readers with no previous affinity to S/M to read the story, I would preface it with precisely the kind of warnings actually used. I am NOT suggesting that this was in any way the motivation of those who composed the warnings. I am sure this was not the case. But that's the way the world works. I therefore submit, m'Lud, that the warnings are a total irrelevance in the context of my argument.
Following Tim's tennis metaphor, I'm off to practice my forehand. It's amazing what fun you can have with a forehand and a couple of nice balls. And, by the way, did you realise that in terms of etymology a successful manipulator is someone who does a good hand job?
John, l'Ecossais pensif.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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What more can I say? Is it an instruction or a warning? Do I touch it or piss on it?
There is a point where we have to say "Enough. Let the person see the sign and proceed on their own responsibility."
After a while in our lives we leanr that paint IS wet when the sign says so, that fire is hot, that a one way street is a one way street, that hitting our thumb with a hammer hurts. It is unlikely that a visitor to the site will be young enough not to have learnt at least some of these lessons.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I do hope this one-to-one exchange isn't going to continue; we're getting much too far towards the right of the screen for a committed left-winger like me!
But! A 'Wet Paint' notice usually means that the paint was wet ten days ago, and loads of people will touch it to confirm their suspicion that this is so. I've never seen a notice warning that fire is hot, but I see dozens of notices warning that the towel-rail in hotel bathrooms may be hot - and I invariably touch it to see whether it is - don't you? A one-way street is only a one-way street if a policeman or traffic-warden is watching; my office overlooks one, so I know this to be true! With respect, I don't think the hammer example is really valid - have you ever seen a hammer with a warning on the haft?
Seriously, Tim, my point is that teens have unlimited innate curiosity; if they're lucky, they may retain that curiosity throughout their lives. Most don't. I think I'm one of the lucky few. Warnings don't work.
If I might suggest an analogy of which I have some knowledge - and this is in no way intended to be more than an illustration - being gay as a teen is a bit like being into soft drugs. It takes you out of the mainstream, and it can occasionally be dangerous, but by and large it's all part of the process of finding yourself. The greatest danger lies in the increased risk of exposure to hard drugs. Some will graduate to hard drugs whatever happens; going for the extreme is in their nature. Most will not go that far, but a significant group will be very much at risk if the opportunity to experiment is put on a plate before them. Much as I would like it to be otherwise, I cannot see this drug problem receding without much more dramatic socio-economic changes than I expect to see in my lifetime. So, not without reluctance, I find myself opposing the legalisation of soft drugs because of the attendant risk of increasing the attraction of hard drugs to the section of the community I most want to protect. Nevertheless, as I admit above, some will follow the road to destruction whatever the law may say.
Now I accept that this may seem a bit ponderous, but I see a fairly close parallel with our present debate. S/M is outside the mainstream. It is potentially dangerous and destructive. Some will go there because that is where they wish to go, and I do not seek to deny them the right to make that choice. But I believe, wholeheartedly, that it is wrong to advertise the option to those whose journey to S/M may be motivated by curiosity rather than conviction. So-called 'warnings' are an irrelevance.
As I have already said, I accept that 'The Story of Tim' is a fairly innocuous piece of S/M fiction - in fact, in that genre, it's pretty good - though it does idealise a world in which few participants are as precocious or as perceptive as the Tim of the story. But - sorry, Tim - I remain committed to my view that in the context of a site ostensibly dedicated to gay teen love - an objective which I support with all my heart - this story is downright dangerous. I believe it has no place here.
How many hits do you score on the Board these days? Surely there must be somebody who supports me or supports you. I honestly expected to be well and truly slagged off, and I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of criticism. Maybe I do have some S/M characteristics after all!
Cossie XLIV.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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as well as your overall assessment. There is no place for that story here....
It is definately potentialy harmful.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Put simply, it remains on the site.
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