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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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25 years ago we had our last blasphemy trial in Britain, when Gay News was prosecuted for publishing a homoerotic poem about Jesus. The editor was fined and given a 9-month suspended sentence. Yesterday a public reading of the poem was given in London to mark the anniversary, but the author, James Kirkup, felt he was being used.
In the poem, The Love that Dares to Speak its Name, Jesus is portrayed as a promiscuous gay (sex with John the Baptist, the disciples, Pontius Pilate), and after the crucifixion his body is buggered by a Roman centurion.
The article's on http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4459113,00.htmlwith extracts from the poem on http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,753186,00.html.
I don't call myself a Christian. Yet I feel very uncomfortable about the poem. Maybe my "proper" upbringing is still with me. Maybe I'm hypocritical. Views?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Hmmmmm..... Do the math......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I wouldn't call you hypocritical. From what I read of it, it seems rather disgusting. It's not the sex that bothers me (afterall, I write gay erotic lovestories). It's also not the allegation that Jesus may have been gay (he might have been). The poem seems to serve no purpose other than perhaps to be shocking. This type of "art" does a disservice to the gay community in that it draws negative attention and helps to set us up as targets. The poems does to Christians what many of them have been doing to us for far to long. We need to win acceptance, not provoke further attack. It also portrays us in a very negative light by furthering the "promiscuous gay" image. The poem really did no service to anyone, Christian or gay, and seems to be an attack on both. I think that is what bothers me.
Just my opinion for what it's worth,
Think good thoughts,
e
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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well i for one dont find your opinion hypocritical at all. like e said in his reply the poem is a peice or "art" and it can be taken by many different poeple many differant ways, to me that is the true beauty of "art".
the really awesomely kewl part about being a part of the human race is that i get to experance so many different views of so many differant subjects, thats what keeps things fresh for me. of course i dont agree with some points of view and at times feel a need to argue my point but thats the kewl part, to agree to disagree is some times the most fun cause the groth and learning is in the experance not the out come.
well thats how i see it anyways.
later
tim
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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My reaction is Ewwww !
What is the point of that other than to provoke?
I've always found that prodding my Brahma bull
Gus with a stick does NOT make him walk any
faster. Rather,it makes him dig in his heels.
Just takes longer to make him move.
~smith
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Agreed, the poem in itself is not nice, and seems pointless. What I was really asking, I think, is this. Am I being hypocritical in disliking a slur on a religion to which I don't subscribe? Though I'm equally no Muslim, I've got no quarrel at all with Islam in general; but in the faintly comparable case of Satanic Verses I confess that I was rather on Rushdie's side (even though that book was just as offensive to Islam), on the principle of freedom of expression. IF that's acceptable, why shouldn't I be on the side of Kirkup versus Christianity? I strongly suspect I'm being irrational somewhere.
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No irrationality what so ever!!
like you pointed out yourself, you took Rushdie's side because of the principle it stood for. This poem has indeed no point at all. Anything that is made only to hurt is worthless! You are not hypocritical - you are rational and you have taste 
Just be
Gil
Searching for the light at the end of the bed...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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ahhhh but gil
that pome has motivated this discussion so it it truly worthless?
just a thought.
later
timmer
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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But rape (for example) has motivated many a discussion. That doesn't give rape any virtue.
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Who's to say X has no value? (Replace X with the title of any book, poem, movie, record, etc etc).
If someone, anyone, appreciates it, surely it has value. Even if it's just one person.
We can't all have the same opinions about everything, and to say something has no value based solely on our own (undoubtedly biased) opinions is IMO wrong.
It's the same as a blanket statement saying being gay is against nature, and hence wrong.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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That's the burning dilemma of freedom of expression, isn't it? Is it OK to say something that appeals to the few but revolts the great majority?
Presumably there is a small minority (namely rapists) which claims that rape is OK. Should they have freedom to express their opinion, through any medium, which might win converts to their cause? The great majority would subscribe to a blanket statement that rape is wrong.
Likewise racist political parties or individuals. Should they be forbidden to utter their views? Some people still admire Hitler.
The blanket statement which you cite, that being gay is against nature, and hence wrong, is probably still subscribed to by a majority of mankind. Yet WE find it distasteful.
That's the dilemma. Where, if anywhere, should freedom of expression begin, or end?
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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but is not rape an act of force???....no one has ever forced me to read or look at anything it is my choice to do so...with rape there is no choice.
tim
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Don't quite understand you, Tim. We're not comparing offensive acts or literature or whatever. We're talking about the freedom to express positive views on what some/many/most/all regard as offensive.
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Mihangel,
I find (gangsta) rap music in general offensive, not really because of the lyrics or such, I just find it a really REALLY crappy kind of music. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to go on a crusade against rap music, even though many others are willing to do just that.
Your example of rapists is a very pointed one. I guess expressing the views that rape is OK could be interpreted as a criminal act (might be considered as condoning or preparing to commit rape I suppose), and no fully sane person would agree with anyone expressing such views. It seems like an overly melodramatic example to me, couldn't you have chosen something a bit more moderate? 
Many say that to be able to have a free society with freedom of expression, we have to accept such things as nazis speaking their views or else we're not truly a free society (and indeed, a whole bunch of things are illegal to say in many western countries).
Saying rape is okay isn't so much offensive as just plain nuts in my opinion, and the real crime is commiting it, not talking about commiting it. That's my take on it.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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OK, I'm sorry I did choose that example since it's taken the discussion in an unintended direction. Let's drop that one. The real point, as you say, is how far people like nazis or "blasphemists" should be free to put forward offensive views, and how tolerant those who are offended should be of that freedom. And as usual I doubt there's any clear-cut answer.
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No clear-cut answers?
Well, the answer is that unless we let people say ANYTHING that is on their mind, we're guilty of the hypocricy mentioned in the subject.
After all, words do not hurt (in the same way as actions do), so speaking offensive things is a lesser evil than committing offensive things.
I'm not REALLY suggesting I think it's OK to say anything, I'm just saying it's hypocritical to accept some things (uh well, most things actually) to be said and outlawing others. By doing so we write opinions into law and at that point things start to get hairy. Exactly whose opinions is it that should be made into law?
Outlawing nazi propaganda for example is something most people would consider a 'good' thing. But once we accept ONE limitation of our freedom of expression it's easier to accept another, and another and... So it's fairly dangerous to start walking down this path.
"Look, we've already outlawed nazi propaganda, rape condonation, communism, rock music, satanism and pornography, so why not THIS also...?"
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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i agree with lenny on this one...where do we draw the line or do we draw a line at all?
i feel that at times it seems to me that we take our freedoms a little to lightly. if it were not for our freedom of expression none of us would be here chatting about this. if at some point a line is drawn and some subjects are "outlawed" it will simply be the begining of the end.
as for my comments about rape, well the point is was trying to make was that a pome is an apple and the act of rape is an orange..how can the 2 be compared? enough said about that.
ok off to go play in the sun
have a great day
later
tim
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I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to my death the right for you to say it.
Hugs, Charlie
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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THANKS CHARLIE....HUGS BACK TO YOU
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