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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I would just question what is so offensive, so dangerous, about a piece of fiction. For a start, if one does not want to read it, one does not have to. Second, shock horror, it is not true. It depicts fictitious situations and ideas that some people may not agree with and others may find downright offensive. So does No Logo. So does Lolita. So does Slaughterhouse 5. So do most books, for that matter, if they are any more than totally generic mainstream literature, which does a marvellous job of being inoffensively uninteresting. How can exposure to different ideas be threatening? Surely, readers must be given the benefit of the doubt that they can read a piece of literature without being evilly turned away from the moral majority. May I remind people here that gay people are on the wrong side of the moral majority, too, and we must be careful before we, too, advocate the silencing of a minority voice within our own community.
It would seem to me that demanding the removal of a piece of literature solely because it contains depictions some may find offensive is a descent into intellectual totalitarianism. Let the writing be. Read it, if you wish. Be challenged, if it challenges you. Enjoy it, if you find it enjoyable. Ignore it, if you do not wish to find out your reaction.
To say that the presence of a story destroys the safety of this place is nonsensical. For a start, this is not a 'place' as such. It is a website. A medium of communication through which people who need to can communicate. One cannot be accosted in a back alley by a nasty old man as one finished reading a S/M story. Maybe I'm being thick here, but I have no idea how it is threatening or dangerous to have such a story here. I do not enjoy S / M myself, particularily, but I know many who do, and this does not make them bad people, or dominant or meek in real life. Why can such a piece of writing not abide here. I do not understand.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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and in not to distant a past I have seen true good as well.
I have read the story. As far as a piece of fiction goes it is a good one, perhaps not my cup of tea, but good none the less.
Who I am concerned about is the young boy that reads this and is hurt by its ideas, by its lure.
Tim, should know how some parts of this story affect some people he knows...... For some, a word is enough, for others an image brought to the fore.
I dont wish to censure, I meerly wish to protect.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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Bester, I strongly agree with your comments. THis world doesn't need anymore thought police. Since Tim has agreed to terminate his association with GWG, it seems reasonable that he be spared any futher harassment from its spokesperson.
Richard
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Provided it is done with measured language and politeness and dignity I am "content" to be criticised. I have indeed resigned from the GWG, and made it known to all relevant people, I think, by using their email list (A list I recall being heavily criticised for rescuing because I had some sort of alleged ulterior motive for doing so).
I had also sent a messgae, the same one, to their "issues and answers" list, but that now seems to be moderated, and I doubt that message will be released to the relatively small number of people on it.
Now, is it not about time we talked of the literary merits of Jack's story in addition to my alleged immorality in some eyes for daring to host it?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It does NOT mean that every utterance is as a spokesperson for said organization...
Or am I not allowed a personal opinion here?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Into a gay lifestyle, and is therefore harmful. This, of course, is not really a valid belief, and I would content that neither is the belief that any piece of literature can be a 'lure'. I think we must assume people between the ages of 12 and 20 are NOT the brainless immature little sheep that they are so often assumed to be, and can make up their minds for themselves, without being brainwashed by fiction.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... ... in you, Bester. I've read your contributions elsewhere, and I have developed a healthy respect for your intellectual capabilities. I don't think you're using those capabilities here, though.
First off, I can't see that Marc diverges all that much from my point of view; maybe he wants the story off the site altogether, whereas I simply want it removed from the 'front page'. But, with respect, you seem to be missing the point that the primary objection of both of us (certainly for me) is not to the story but to its location. It is perfectly possible to provide without promulgating.
So your parallel with gay fiction doesn't hold water. Those who come to Tim's site (other than by accident, of course!) come in the knowledge of what to expect. I can't see it happening, but if mainstream magazines carried gay stories I suspect that it would lead a number of readers to question their orientation and consider at least the possibility of a gay relationship. Now I don't, and you don't, see anything wrong with that, because we are gay. But if we stand back and look at the situation objectively, it would do no favours for the confused explorer; being str8 is much easier than being gay! I am not in any way ashamed of what I am, but it's no soft option. I know you contacted Francis (YSD) and were impressed (if that's the right word) by him. So was I - I love his sense of humour, though being monogamous and committed (not to mention being generationally incompatible) I have never tried to contact him other than on TGO. I cite him as an example of a highly intelligent, articulate and perceptive teenager who is perfectly comfortable with his orientation, but had the penetration (now there's a word to conjure with!) to admit that he would take a str8 pill if it were available - remember Tim's poll? I reckon he was dead right!
I'm simply applying the same logic to 'The Story of Tim'. It's a well-constructed story with a strong moral content, and I'd make it recommended reading for those with S/M inclinations. I just don't want it metaphorically pushed down the throats of those who are not looking for it. The danger, I think, lies in the very quality of the story; if it weren't so well written I'd be less concerned about its capacity to exert influence.
And finally, please don't insult me with trite, stereotypical accusations of regarding teenagers as brainless, immature little sheep. What have I ever said to justify such an accusation? I made most of my life's decisions between twelve and twenty, and on the whole I believe I made them well. Certainly I don't regret them. But neither intelligence nor maturity can protect us from the power of the written word; we are all open to influence and suggestion - it's a psychological foible called emotion, without which we can neither love, nor deserve to be loved.
Don't misjudge me, Bester; I respect your capabilities. Let's keep talking - we may learn from each other!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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