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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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A rabbi (among the settlers on the West Bank) made the ridiculous statement that young men who refuse to serve in the (draft) army should be shot. Of course, they had to give him a 5-page spread in the weekend magazine section of my newspaper. He also had a few other things to say...
There are many unnatural phenomena in our time. Homosexuality, for example. This is an unnatural, non-normal and unhealthy phenomenon. To be healthy means a man marrying a woman, not a man with a man nor a woman with a woman. We should execrate this unnatural phenomenon. Homosexuals are truly to be pitied. I know them personally. We must help them out of their plight. And I say this with full responsibility: any homosexual can extricate himself from his problem and create a family with a woman. He is only what he is for psychological or hormonal reasons. To this very day I have referred every homosexual who has come to me and related his problem to competent assistance and after 6 months to a year he returns and tells me with great emotion that he is marrying a woman. And then after another 6 month to a year he comes and tells me that he is happily married. His spouse is happy too...
Q: To you this is a problem, to them you are the problem. Gays are happy with the way they have chosen to live their lives. Why pester them, or worse, try to change them?
They are not happy. That's not correct. It's a defence mechanism...
Q: Not a few religious people live 'under cover' and live a lie because of homophobes like you.
I know of religious people who were mired down in this for loads of years, but in the end they got out of their problem and today they are happy and content...
And so, dear students, your homework for today is: discuss - and no holds barred!
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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He needs to understand a few things in volume.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Don't forget - I translated this out of a magazine article. Besides, I would be surprised if he can speak English. The email of the journalist who wrote the article and cxonducted the interview is makover@maariv.co.il Maybe that will help.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I have emailed the journalist with a polite request to find a way pass my thoughts to the rabbi concerned.
Perhaps others might also email this journalist and suggest that a worldwide article from gay people would make interesting copy for his readers?
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The journalist's mailbox is full
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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Marc… I now fully understand how you must’ve felt about posting, I mean I kept staring at this and I had many mixed feelings but it was mostly hesitation.
A while back I was thinking of posting some question that’s been on my mind which is on a similar line with this, I was about to ask: “Do you hate being gay?”… Now guys… please don’t misunderstand me! I don’t mean I agree with what that guy said, but what about those that he referred to “competent assistance” and were happily married to a woman after 6-12 months? I don’t suppose he could be lying, could he?
I’ve known for a long time that many (I’m not sure about “any”) homosexuals can marry a woman and have a family, I’ve seen it! But are they happy? How do they accept it? Could it be that they are living a lie?
I have discussed this “getting married and having a normal life” (God how I hate this “normal life” part) with one of my friends, he was of the opinion that we (gays) should forget about men and FORCE ourselves to accept women as our partners. I just asked him to think about it for a minute; “CAN you do it?” He assumed a “lecturing” tone and told me that I must try to at least think about it and that I can’t just ignore it and be happy as a gay! I said that I’ve thought about it ever since I realized what I am (since I was 13), not a day passed when I haven’t thought about it, every time I fantasize about men I tell myself why not try women and I DO try and fail completely, I just don’t have any sexual interest in women.
So this guy says that gays aren’t really happy being what they are and that it’s just a defense mechanism… forgive my language but I think it’s bullshit! Happiness isn’t as easy as being gay or str8! It’s a big and complicated and many things affect it! But maybe one can say that it “troubles” oneself to be gay and not be able to change it, perhaps that’s what I’m feeling but I’m not sure. I’m confused about this and I need your opinions. Some might argue that it’s not an opinion matter… well then please tell me your feelings about it.
If this sounded silly I’m sorry,
Thank You
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I think I can comment on happiness. It is subjective.- I have been ecstatic at many periods in my life, these include:
- falling in love with the girl I married
- telling her I loved her
- not being hit because it was acceptable to do so
- having her agree to marry me
- having her not reject me for loving a boy
- the birth of our son
- much more...
- I have been unhappy too. Often. These periods have included
- Actually saying to myself "I am a gay man"
- Saying these words to my wife
- Realising that I am unattracted to the female form. Period.
- Feeling terrified all my teenage life in case my parents ever found out
- Going to university and being too scared to be a gay man then
- Being afraid. Just afraid.
- Being outed at school
- Hating being gay. I have hated and loathed it
BUT I do not regret who I am, and I am not unhappy now. Unhappiness is in my history, not in my present. Today, and for several months now, starting withe the removal of my obsessive regard for one individual who was not worth even affection, I have started to learn happiness.
This is nothing to do with being gay. It is to do with recognising the way I have lived my life, and how I have enclosed my "inner child", "little timmy", in a glass cage. He oculd see out, but could not break out. I imprisoned him. I have taken the step of admitting to myself that I may have been clinically depressed all my life, and I am breaking free.
The glass cage is gone, and timmy is out to play. Look at the party pictures if you don't believe me. That is who I am.
So the question arises: "Would I have been like this if I had been heterosexual?" And this is imposisble to answer, for we cannto recreate the past. Yet I feel that I would have been, simply because of my upbringing.
Back to the theme in hand, though. I am happily married. During this 23 year happy marriage we have each been deeply unhappy. My being gay has certainly been an excellent excuse for each of us, but it is not the reason. BUT, being married does not remove the ache and yearning for male emotional and sexual contact. That remains at all times, and often the pull is enormous.
I seem to have strayed far from the topic. The rabbi who preaches cure is an ass. And an Arse. If cure were posisble, I would be heterosexual. I am not. I do not expect I ever will be.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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i am "happy" with who and what i am.
i am not happy with some of my past.
i would not change a thing because both have helped me be me.
i would not want to be "cured".
i cant say i like being gay anymore then i can say i dislike not being srt8.
all in all life is one thrilling things after another, both good and bad, but its the life i have, so plug ahead i shall.
peace
tim...of USA
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Many of the things Tim said are true for myself as well. I have at times been very happy and satisfied with my life. I have also at times been very unhappy and dissatisfied, even to the point of suicide. But being gay is NOT what made me unhappy. It is the fear of the way friends, family, and society in general would react to my being gay that has, at times, made me unhappy. If being gay were acceptable in society, I would have been quite happy during most of my life. There are other things that would have made me unhappy from time to time, but I most definitely would have been a much happier person.
Funny thing though, that very fear that made me so unhappy, is what lead me to marry. My marriage to my wife is one of the things that has brought much happiness into my life. It has nothing to do with sex or preference, however. It has everything to do with the love and companionship we share with one another. I would be just as happy if she were male.
Am I "cured" because I am happily married? Not hardly. In fact I probably look longer and harder and drool more over a sexy guy now than ever before, simply because I know I can't have one.
I think our rabbi friend is full of it.
Think good thoughts,
e
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This is not the first time someone preaches about changing homosexuals into str8s, unfortunatly it isn't the last time either. It doesn't work as much as you can't change str* into homosexuals. I am gay that is part of who I am! would it have been possible to change I still wouldn't do it, since changing that is changing who I am. Happines has nothing to do with the attraction to one sex or the other, in fact by limiting ourselves to one sex we are lowering our chances to find happines through companionship by 50%. It does not matter the sex of the person but the person himself (or herself  )
Do I regret being gay, I can't say I can be. I regret many choices I made but I can NOT regret somthing I have no control over. And why should I!?!
" If it harms none do as you will"!!!
Be good, Be yourselves! Gil
Searching for the light at the end of the bed...
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Human sauallity is a unequal bell curve neither black nor white but many shades of gray.
It has always saddened me that some can not see humanity as it is, as diverse as say the fingerprint or DNA but I guess there are always going to be those be it out of fear or the desire to control or if you will forgive me, the inability to think for themselves, that will stifle our greatest gift. The freedom to be who we are.
Hehe even though sex has taken up a great deal of my thought and dream time, I'd like to know your thoughts on how much you think our sexuallity goes into making us who we are?
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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As soon as I realized that I’m gay I hid it, and I think I hid it well cos no one ever suspects it, least of all my parents and the people that are close to me
As soon as I realized that I’m gay I hid it, and I think I hid it well cos no one ever suspects it, least of all my parents and the people that are close to me. I still remember the look of shock on my friend’s face when I told him that I am gay. He was my first gay friend; when I was first introduced to him I suspected that he was gay and (surprisingly) decided to come out to him without even having second thoughts and I did so in our 3rd meeting. It took me a great deal to calm him down cos he thought I was trying to fool him into admitting that he’s gay.
My life continued like this, it never even burdened me that I was living a lie, I didn’t think of it that way.
The point is that I knew I have nothing to fear from society (most of the time) as long as I keep acting, but I also hated and sometimes still hate being gay.
What I misunderstood from the rabbi’s words is the "happily" bit. I’ve said that I know gay men can get married to a woman but I associated "happily" with sexual attraction.
So is marriage for gays a blessing or a curse? I know it could be either for str8s but won’t being gay tip the scales towards hell?
You guys say that you are not sexually attracted to women (that’s what I assumed by not being attracted to the female form), yet for Tim falling in love with one and e accepting another as if she were a male. How? I know marriage is not just sex but I think that sex, although let’s say constitutes 30% of it, is the foundation that marriage can’t exist without.
I have many female friends (not girlfriends) and some of them are really close to me (but they don’t know I’m gay), there has to be love here, but it’s not what I would base a marriage on! I mean I may be able to force myself to have sex with one of them but it will be without feeling, without passion. But how many times can I do this? And if I accept this what about her? What about what she expects of me? Won’t she notice something is missing? And can a relationship with a woman, be it marriage or whatever, be as satisfying as with a man to our kind? And what will that do to me (if not her) in the long run?
Could it be that the fear and pressures of the society made you marry? And after that you tried to make the best of the situation and be content with what you have? Have you had sex with a man before you got married? Does it make marrying a woman or even thinking about it more difficult?
When I look at a human being, no matter what the degree of his/her beauty is, I see a person. For women it stops at that but for men it goes much, much deeper… never mind the details… suffice it to say that it’s a life, a whole life that I see.
If I have offended anyone I’m deeply sorry, I didn’t mean to.
PS: Tim? I would love to look at the party pictures if it’s possible.
Thank you all
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I married out of pure love. Lust was in there too. I discovered I could lust after this ONE woman. I never did before, though I could pick up almost any girl I aimed at. THIS girl was and is special.
She is not a "boy sbstitute" as those who have met her can see. She is feminine, and very female. She is beloved. And HER form alone is attractive amoing all the other beautiful girls and women that I have seen.
Love, and here lust, crosses the gender boundary. It is rare, but it happens. Heterosexual people sometimes fall for the same gender too.
And have you offended? Not in any way at all
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My feeling is that both sexes are attractive. Each has its beauties and lures, though in different perspectives. Although I have seen some extremely attractive people who would be that way if either sex.
But beauty is not what I fall in love with (helps to attract in the first place!). Thank goodness because I am no beauty myself. But the inner person, I think, has not much to do with sex. Environment, upbringing, etc. all combine to build that inner person. And I find myself attracted to people who are not beautiful on the outside, but after geting to know them, become very beautiful in my eyes.
I have felt lust for others (both sexes) when I first met them, but to me that will not last long. The lust I felt for my wife was built over a period of months. And with that building lust was also building love.
I think everyone has their soul mate out there, and for those who are lucky enough to find them, the sex of that person does not matter in the least. IMHO
Hugs, Charlie
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I think you misunderstood me a little, or pehaps I wasn't too clear. I don't accept my wife as if she were a male, I said I would be just as happy if she were. Meaning that her sex really makes no difference in the way that I feel for her. It definitely makes a difference in our sex life, but that is the only part of our relationship where her being a female makes a difference.
I have a tendency to refer to myself as gay and I did in my previous post. In reality I am bisexual. I find men more appealing sexually than women, but I do not find women unappealing. I have been attracted to several and have found great satisfaction in making love to them. But I rarely fantasize about women. About 90% of my sexual fantasies are about males.
My fears about society and it's pressures did not make me marry. But I think it did keep me from getting into an ongoing relationship with another man. I have never wanted people to know about my homosexuality. I did what I needed to avoid it. I would never have married due to that pressure, I married because I fell in love.
And no, you haven't offended me either.
Think good thoughts,
e
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I would not have been in the Position to find a girl and fall in love with her if loving males had been socially acceptable. I would have been in deep and rapturous entanglements with, well, with so many lovely young men. Girls would not have been relevant for me.
It was not social pressures that made me marry, I think. Somehow I always expected to marry, though being solely male attracted I had no concpet of how that might posisbly happen. I did want to marry the object of my obsession, after all. Hard to have had children with him, though. I did want children.
So marriage arrived, unbidden, and by total surprise.
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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