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As I stated before, I am new to this. Can someone please explain to me the differences in love?
Maybe a little background would help. I am a 51 yo male that spent many years attempting to determine how I could have two great loves in my life, one a male and the other a female. The first was a boy, many years ago. As it turns out (with more than a little help from Tim) I have discovered this love still exists between us. The second didn't turn out so well, she has chosen to love someone else, but that has not changed my heart. Also, I have three of the most beautiful and wonderful kids in the world (a little prejudiced maybe?) with her.
I was just starting to come to terms with the above and open my mind to my heart by reading and contemplating every story I could find about different types of love when the discussions started about "The Story of Tim". This has confused me to no end. Am I now to understand that love is bad? I always thought (even during the great confusion years) that you cannot control who you fall in love with, just how you act upon it.
Am I a bad person because whenever I meet a child or talk to a boy I have never seen before, I feel warm inside? Am I a pervert for wanting to protect that child and tell that child that I love him? Is it that harmful to feel good about a boy's grin? I love all children, but yes, boys somehow make me happy inside. Is that wrong?
Next confusion. What is sex? Is it a warm feeling, a kiss, a touch, fucking? When I, or Tim, or all the others I have seen, say Hugs to someone, is that a form of sex? When someone gives me a hug I feel warm and happy inside. I have said before that an unexpected hug is the greatest feeling I know. To those of you with your mind in the gutter, yes, even better than an orgasm because it can come from anywhere, from anyone, is legal everywhere as far as I know, and conveys a message of caring. So, is sex only a physical act, or more than that? Where does pain fall in this? Is pain harmful or just another of your body's sensations?
Tim has asked the question before, even had a survey. At what age difference is love and sex wrong? At what age should love and sex begin? With three kids I can tell you that from the moment of birth all the physical attributes are present. Was whatever Supreme Being you believe in wrong when he/she/it/they made us physically capable at any age?
I know that the answers to these questions have been debated over the centuries, and that opinions have run the gamut. But your opinions are important to me now. If you do not wish to respond on this forum, feel free to email me, but (and I hope Tim will agree) your thoughts and opinions matter to everyone. And if just one other person is caused to consider what is said and it makes a difference or changes a tragic outcome to a happy one, then I will feel a hug.
Hugs to all, Charlie
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The reality is as you stated, that directly from birth a person is capable of enjoying sex.
But... In our society, the place each of us choose to live, we as social beings gather and write sets or rules. Some call them laws, and we as members of these social units are bound to live by them.
Love is a thing that is as effemeral as dust on the wind. Yet it is powerful and real and vibrant as any of the myriad of emotions. It is the thing in us that drives us to be better people, to hold a baby, to die protecting, to cherish life, just to name a few.
But I think you mean love as a romantic interlude....
There you have a question that is not easily answered.
Love between a boy and a man.... And I mean love in all its aspects. Is it wrong? Is it right? There are many that would blatently say no, but it can not be that cut and dry.
The only thing I could say that might have a chance at making a bit of sense is that...
Love of this type has to be first, a thing of the heart. It is not a thing that is activly sought. If it is, I believe we have a word for that. Love of a carnal nature has to be consensual and informed. But there is some question as to when a person is truly mature enough to understand the implications of the sexual act.
When a minor child indeed begins to become sexually active, at first it is a game, something done to feel good. The thought of emotional ties are at best that of friendship. To actually love someone implies a deeper committment, and it is that committment that I believe a child is incapible of. Yes, he knows of all the mechanics of having sex, but is he truly capable of a loving committment?
A man can fall in love with a boy, yes, because he has the maturity to establish a comitted relationship. But when a man loves a boy, could it not be that the boy reacts to the kind gentle treatment love precipitates, more so than the love for the actual man.
In other words, is the boy in love? or, Is he in love with the idea of 'being' in love?
I tried to logically put my thoughts on the table for all to see.... I hope they made sense...
Marc.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Your shot is probably very close to what my opinions are, but do cause even more confusion.
Maturity, in my mind, is harder to understand than love. The obvious questions arise when maturity is mentioned. I alluded to them with my question about age. I know this is getting very philosophical, but I cannot truly believe that a boy of twelve cannot be more mature about his feelings than a man of my age. Look at my confusion, caused by the prevailing attitudes of today. Does that mean I am less mature than some who accepts the feelings his body and mind are telling him?
A look at history shows that attitudes have changed about both physical (as you call it romantic) and emotional love. Did the Roman Empire fall because of the attitudes of that day towards the male, both young and old? (Sometimes I think I was born way to late in history.)
A big hug to you, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Then I read your reply. I think it says all I was struggling to say.
I loved a boy when I was 13. Before then I had playmates.
Be clear. Given the right environment I would have had sex with my playmates. It would have been sex. Friction. Wanking, maybe sucking and fucking. I tried to!
When I found love it was different. Emotional. I became tongue tied. I could NOT offer sex. I found love. HE was special and I was nothing.
I am unable to comment on the age part except to say I never found an older LOOKING boy attractive. Always the same age or younger. I know I would have been capable of granting informed consent to an older looking boy or even to a man, becayse I was revolted by the idea. "Informed, I witheld my consent"
I find it unlikely, improbable, though possible that a boy might be able to form a mature, unbidden loving (not hero worship) set of feelings for a man, and desire a fully physical relationship without any stimulus from the older man.
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Perhaps a different approach to what I am asking. This incident occurs this past week and it has caused me a lot of thought about who or what I am.
I went to a local shopping mail to get some lunch. As soon as I pulled into a parking space a boy appeared at my window with his mouth moving. As I sometimes fell young at heart, I had the music cranked up and didn't hear a word. I motioned for him to wait until I got out. Once out, he took a deep breath and quickly spilled out a run on sentence that ended with "could you space something for the bus?" I immediately suspected a con but it didn't matter somehow. I asked why he wasn't in school and he immediately smiled and said he was still on Christmas break but had to return the next day. I then asked him how old he was. He said fourteen and I looked skeptical because he didn't look a day over eleven. He then spouted "I was born on January 8, 1988 and tomorrow is my birthday." I smiled and said happy birthday to him, pulled out my wallet and gave him a dollar. I know, I know, everyone is saying what a fool, but it made my day. Here I knew that this kid was probably just out to get some free money, but I didn't care! As a matter of fact, after I went in and got some lunch, I returned to the parking lot to look for him, but he was gone. Then I felt a small sadness because I missed him. I am sure that if I do see this particular kid again he will have a different story, but I don't care. Now how perverted is that?
Charlie
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brian
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 60
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the funny thing is that you are asking the question so-called boylovers have asked for generations. i am not a boylover, but i am pretty active on several of their boards, so i guess i know quite a bit about them and how they think. and exactly that question, whether sex with a boy is wrong, when is the boy mature enough, can you have sex with a child that is underage at all and so on are regularly discussed with no outcome.
one answer i can provide is that there are actually boys aged 12 or 13 who long for affection with a man. They are fully capable of understanding what having sex (or especially gay sex means) and loving someone means and they want that. It is rather rare, as i think, but it is possible.
For me personally S/M does not directly have something to do with pain, but with trusting the other person, with giving yourself in the hands´of the other person. and that is about love. The role of pain in all of that...I don't know...for me a such raletionship wouldn't be dominantely about pain and the physical acts, but about the psychological things behind all that.
again about boys and their capability to love...maturity has nothing to do with age. There are 12 year olds who are incredibly mature and who are capable of loving someone. and now it is...how do you define maturity? What does somebody make mature, how do you see he or she is mature enough to do this and that?
hmm...i better stop here...i think i have totally missed the subject at hand.
love,
brian
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I work in computers, programming and applications analysis. To do this you have to have a logical mind, which I am told, I have. But logic is failing me here.
You used a label that I have grown to love and hate. I love it because it is true, I love boys. I don't love my daughter any less than I love my sons, but I find myself drawn to boys. All boys between the ages of one day to 115 years I feel a special affinity towards, but the majority of my feelings are directed at 9-14, probably because that is when I was without a dominant male figure when growing up. I feel the desire to nurture and protect, touch and hug, to love. But I hate the modern day connotations that accompany the words "boy lover". They reek of vile perversions and of doing harm. To quote a cliche, "I would never knowingly harm a child". And to apply that label in this day does cause great harm too both the man and the boy. But does it have to? I suggest not, but then I have an ulterior motive. Thoughts?
Love back to you friend, Charlie
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brian
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 60
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if you would one day decide to post on a boylove board and tell tehm what you said here they would say that you are indeed a boylover. remember I know probably about 200 of those just by reading their posts, and all of them are so different. Of those 200, maybe ten have had sex with boys as in anal intercourse (and openly admitting it which they shouldn't do). 150 are against sex with a boy because it could do him harm and they don't want to harm boys. Boylover means, a person who loves boys... and that can be seen in a wide range... Affection does not harm the boy, sex as in penetrating him can harm him psycholgically and physically... but does not have to.
love,
brian
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The thing I see most often are people saying a twelve year old is capable of engaging in a loving relationship.
Granted, some are.... and some arent.
How does a person know the difference? How can an adult, whom is generally (I said generally) the driving force in these relationships be sure that they have a boy that actually understands what is happening to him?
Love isn't about the giving of yourself totally. It is about the equal give and take of a mutually beneficial relationship.
Just another opinion....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc;
To quote you: "It is about the equal give and take of a mutually beneficial relationship." has been the truest and most complete definition of love between two people that I have seen in a while. It doesn't matter what age or sex the two are as long as it is freely given and, maybe more importantly, accepted with awareness and understanding. And I agree, some twelve year olds can do this and others cant, but then the same can be said of almost any age. That is why my wife and I are separated, she cannot accept my love anymore.
Charlie
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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At first, I was a bit confused about where Charlie was going, but the posts above clear the picture.
Attitudes have changed in recent years; maybe because bad news and witch-hunting sells newspapers. These days, a guy who shows any sort of affection to a boy - or, for that matter, to a girl - risks being pilloried as a pervert. And we all know that's rubbish. I accept that I'm a boy lover; since my first gay sexual encounter I - like Tim - have been attracted to boys looking no older (and, if I'm honest, preferably younger) than myself. And when I passed my mid-twenties my 'attraction threshhold' stopped ageing with me. These days, it seems to be going backwards!
I'll admit that boys feature in my fantasies. I can't change that; I don't even want to. And yes, I enjoy being close to boys, yes, I'm a hugger, and yes, such contact is sexually stimulating. Those who know me know that in sexual terms I've always derived more pleasure from giving than receiving. I have a HUGE reservoir of love which I need to share.
I see nothing wrong with any of that. But I don't go for all the 'informed consent' crap. Sex with kids is wrong, however precocious they may be. There are plenty of 'willing' victims, but any experienced and resourceful adult could orchestrate that willingness. I've done it myself, more than once, before I though through the consequences of my actions. I had an exciting voyage of discovery in my teens, and I simply do not accept that any adult has the right to infringe the freedom of ANY teen to experience that excitement. It might even involve a cross-generational encounter. I had one or two, in the interests of research! But to saddle a teen with a so-called 'loving', long-term sexual relationship is selfish in the extreme.
So, Charlie, in my book loving does nothing but good. Even where love is backed up with sexual attraction, it need't be harmful; if it is truly unselfish love, it won't be. But sex with kids is nearly always harmful, even if there is a veritable army of apologists trying to argue otherwise.
Does that make sense?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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This time I agree with Cossie.
You may think that's an odd thing to hear from the author of the only adult/youth story on Tim's board. But fantasy is one thing, and reality is another. Warm feelings, loving feelings, the desire to protect and nurture; and fanstasies, imaginings, they are all one thing, and I can't see anything wrong with them in themselves. A sexual relation with a child in the cold, hard world of reality, is quite another.
Oh, and hugs? Hugs can be part of sex, of course they can; so can a kiss. Of they may not be. Just as love can be wrapped up with sex, or it may not be. People are just complicated...
The reason why it's another is simply because of the risk, the risk of harm to the child. Because it's 'only' a risk, you will sometimes hear from people of cases where it all worked out, where the child benefited and everything was fine. But you can't argue from those cases to the general case. You can't argue that it's okay to tell a child to run across a busy road, because you did it when you were a child, and it was okay. The risk makes it wrong to do that.
And what's the harm?
Part of it Cossie spoke about: the risk that just by intruding so massively into a child's life (and sex has a massive effect on anyone, let alone a child) you are removing his spontaneity, changing him, even if you don't want to. I don't mean that you'll be making him gay, or some such, but you will be moulding him to suit you. You are just too big, experienced and strong. Adult emotions, adult obsessions - even with another adult, the course of true love doesn't run smooth, everyone knows the rubbish that comes to the surface when two adults are in love, and the pain it can cause even in the best relationships. Do you really want to dump all that on a child? Time enough...
The other reason is to do with circumstances. People often say, oh well, it was okay in ancient Greece or Polynesia or whatever, what's the problem? The problem is that we *aren't* in Ancient Greece or Polynesia. In those places, where adult/teen relationships were approved, a child had the support of his friends and siblings, and above all of other adults and his parents. In our society they emphatically do not. They are in the relationship on their own, without support of any kind. It's secrecy, deceit, keeping things to yourself, week after week, with always the risk of discovery. You may be prepared to take that risk for yourself - but for him? Do you wnat your last memory of that boy to be of him forced to testify against you in court? And then him, dragged backwards through the social work system, an outcast at school, all kinds of problems at home?
I'm laying it on rather hard. But love is *not* a bad thing; it's the best thing we have. And part of that, as you said yourself are those deep feelings of protectiveness towards the ones you love. That is *not* an inappropriate way to feel towards a child, and it's horrible that in our day people have become suspicious of it. But feeling protective isn't enough; you have to protect. You can't take the risk of harm.
I've chosen to write a story which includes a relationship between a teenager and a man which *did* work out. I feel that's legitimate, and I did it for a number of reasons. One of them was precisely to build a fantasy in which people could lose themselves for a while - it was in Nifty, after all, it's meant to be an erotic story, and one of the reasons for an erotic story is to get people off. I don't mind that, because a little holiday like that can help a person cope. But after the holiday in fantasy land, you come back to reality.
I'm sometimes attracted to teenagers - perhaps not as much as some folk round here, but the attraction is there. I'm lucky, in a way, in that it doesn't form the whole of my sexual personality - I'm attracted to men of pretty mcuh any age, provided they have whatever it is that turns me on... You might say I'm talking from a privileged position, here, compared to someone who is completely wrapped up in kids. People like that have a hard furrow to plough, I won't deny it, and I admit that it's beyond my competence to know how to advise them. But I'm pretty sure that it doesn't help to try to wriggle a way through this.
Love kids. Anyone who tells you you shouldn't doesn't know what they're talking about. But be careful, very careful, because our society is not entirely sane on this topic at the moment. And observe the real boundary: sex with kids can't be justified.
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And I agree with both of you. We have to live and abide by our present surroundings no matter how much we disagree with the general belief. Ah, but that is what makes us human, to sometimes rebel (at least in our mind if not our action).
Sorry that this got turned into a discussion of boy love. I know that I did allude to it twice in my original post, but only because it was a part of the story we have been discussing. I was trying to raise some questions about the different definitions of love and sex and what is "proper" and what is harmful, but I think maybe some subconsious thoughts crept in. Tim is aware of my experience in boy love, and because of him and others, I am well on the way to healing (after almost thirty years of hating myself and what I did), and those desires are only fulfilled in fantasy now, as they should be.
And Jack, your explanation of what the real harm is to an abused child is more clear and probably more correct than any I have heard before. I have printed that out, and with your permission and need ever arises, pass it on.
And thanks to everyone who has or will respond. I hope that others can reap the benefits I have.
Hugs to everyone, Charlie
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