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I have noticed a slight trend in the posts where the author tells a little about themselves. It was noted somewhere below (I don't remember who) that more than a few of the posters here have special feeling for boys. What I have noticed is that most who have said so are now or have been happily married and have children of their own.
Is this a product of the era we grew up in? Was it internal or external pressure to conform to society's standards that every boy grows up and marrries and continues the family line?
For myself, because I did not communicate my feelings to my family (probably because I wouldn't admit them to myself) there was subtle pressure that I finally gave in to. Not saying that I did not love my wife when we married (and still love her very much to this day) but I now wonder if I married for all the 'right' reasons. Was it a subconscious need to suppress my love for boys? Or a desire to fill the nurturing need by having my own children? To clear the air, I love my three beyond words, but have never felt any sexual draw towards them like I have felt with others. And why is that? In my eyes, my children are beautiful and now that the oldest (16) has a steady I do feel jealosy that he is attracted to another (but that is a whole different question) so why do I not feel the same draw as I do to other boys? I realize they are sexual beings, and have had 'the talk' with both boys (the other is now 13) more than once, but the thought of incest (What an ugly word) has never crossed my mind.
Maybe this should be two different posts, one concerning the marriage line and the other dealing with incest, but I think that in a lot of ways, and particularly following this line of thought, they are relevant to each other.
In case you haven't noticed, I like stirring the pot, hehe.
Hugs to all, Charlie
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Every so often I look back and ask myself why I got married. And every time I do I see a genuine, excited, total love for my wife.
I fell for her, hook, line and sinker. And she is not a "boy substitute", for she is feminine, feamle, shapely, gentle, and not one of the things I ever admired in a boy.
I wasn't ever expecting a partner. I wasn't looking. I had no hope of ever being brave enough to find a male partner and no girl was interesting. Make no mistake, I could chat them up, I could ask them out, I could take them to bed and even have relatively successful sex. But they were odd creatures. Abnormal.
I got married because I truly wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. She was the second perosn I fell for, and it felt "different", and right. Sure, it was conventional to get married too, but that was NOT the reason I wed. I had no need to marry.
And we fought infertility to have our son.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The other part of this equation is sexual feeling for our own children if we adore (in our case) the younger male.
I'm going to pose it differently.
All fathers are sexually attracted to, at least in some measure, their offspring of of the relevant gender.
Heterosexual fathers fancy daughters. Homosexual fathers fancy sons. Period.
BUT
There is a great difference between the "Wow, s/he is gorgeous, hot and sexy" and attempting to bed the child.
One is natural. The child reminds us of a younger version of our partner. Our partner was sexually alluring (presumably), so a yonger version will surely have the same charactersitics. It is thus valid to be able to say clearly and unambiguously "My child is goregous, and very sexy. If it were not my child I would even be able to admit sexual feelings towards him/her."
The other is deemed not natural by society, and fortunately we have an inbuilt "protection mechanism" which endows the child with a need to be protected, not bedded. It is thus instinctive NOT to bed the child. Where the reverse is true something is amiss with the protection mechanism.
I am certain that I would be head over heels in love with my own son if he was someone else's son. He is gorgeous (well, to me anyway), and very sexy. He is everything I fell for when I was a teenager. But instead I respect his individuality and simply love him as a father, not as a drooling lover
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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Inbuilt protection mechanism, yes, so inbuilt that most parents are hardly aware of it, if at all. But 'homosexual fathers fancy sons'? Not in my case. Sure, I've eyed his friends (or some of them). But never once have I fancied my son, not even the briefest instantly-suppressed-because-you-know-it's-wrong kind of feeling. And it's not that he looks like the back end of a bus, either. He doesn't. He was a beautiful boy and is now a handsome young man. But no doubt, in view of what I said in an earlier post, you logical so-and-sos will say it's because I'm not a homosexual father!
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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On this one, everything Tim's said (except the infertility bit) applies exactly to me too. There are indeed some who prefer to stay single and celibate, but I reckon the great majority need companionship, of whatever sort. Maybe they don't find the right companion, and get left on the shelf. But if and when the right person, of whichever gender, swims into one's life, one grabs him or her, or tries to. As with Tim, my wife was the right person, and still is.
But on the other thread, I venture to disagree - see the incest messages.
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As I said in my original post, I have not had any feelings other than parental nurturing towards my sons. But their friends are a different story. Since my kids don't live with me, but do visit for a month or two during the summer, I do get to know their friends, most made before the separation. Our home was always open to their friends and that hasn't changed. Those friends like to keep track and pass news back and forth, so I do get to see them even when my kids are not here. One has been the subject of many of my fantasies (thinking about it, even since before the separation). He is eighteen, so would be legal, but he is also str8, so fantasies they are. But I consider my sons better looking than him.
I don't think my orientation has had anything to do with how I felt about my sons. Maybe it is that deep rooted mentality or prohibition, I don't know. I just know that I have never thought of my sons in that context.
Hugs, Charlie
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I married when I was 37yo and thought it would last forever. As I have stated before, I still love my wife very deeply, and her declaration of not loving me anymore was perhaps the most devastating words I have ever heard directed to me.
I see her at least four times a year, when I pick up the kids around Christmas and for the summer, and again when they are dropped off. Every time when I first see her my stomach twists into a ball and then I feel a deep sense of loss. As I said before, if she ever wanted to come back I would have a mighty struggle on my hands, and I have absolutely no idea what I would do.
But a lot of these same feelings occurred when I met face to face recently the boy with whom I had a relationship. Those feelings and the dispair it caused were what led me to Tim and others, because how could I love two people like that at the same time, one male and the other female.
I guess I am not a far along as I thought because it hurts so bad.
Hugs, Charlie
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I have never been attracted to women, so marriage to a woman wouldn't have worked for me as anything more than the "cover" which was more usual in years past. It sounds to me like you guys are bi-sexuals. Which, of course, means being capable of attraction to and relationships with either gender. I think lots of people are in between the 100% straight and 100% gay positions on that scale.
You guys seem to have worked it out, more or less. (Good luck, Charlie, in your continued mourning your losses...).
I only wish that more bisexuals could learn in positive ways about themselves as being legitimately different from either gay or straight people. It seems like Bi's get bashed from both sides. Both straights and gays sometimes accuse true Bi's of being sublimated gays, which they truly are NOT.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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I agree with Tim that most parents feel the "flash of appreciation of a sexy child" thing. I say most, because some don't, like Charlie and Mihangel. Its not significant really, except in an interesting discussion like this.
I had a female client one time who came running to my office in horror because she found herself aroused by her teenaged son running around their house in his underwear, sometimes with an erection bulging. My wise shrink-ly advice was to ask him to put more clothes on. (I resisted my wicked urge to invite me for a house call to observe the problem...hehehe) That solved the problem, once she realized that her feelings were natural, and that of course she would and could "control" them.
I was never sexually attracted to my brother or my father. Never had a son, so can't say more about it than I have.
But some well-done stories of brother-lovers (the "Loving Andy" and "Loving Andy More" series by David Lemmaire was one such, and should be on Richard's list of the best of Nifty, by the way!) and even father-son stories do interest me...even turn me on sometimes. For the story itself when it's well written, I think. The blatent one-handers don't turn me on at all. So I think I'm not sublimating desire for my own family members. Does that make me twisted?
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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No Message Body
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Is it because I have a strong resistance to seeing my children as sexual beings? I would like to think that I know where babies come from, and if I want grandchildren, then at least one of my children will have to have sex (for my daughter, it will be after she gets out of the nunnery at 35, hehe).
As a boy lover, maybe I should feel some type of attraction to my children other than the nurturing instinct. Or am I supressing my feelings so hard that I am not even like most parents?
Hugs, Charlie
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So that's why I like to read both Playboy and Freshmen, hehe.
And it does not make it any easier to come to yourself. It seems like I could enjoy the best of both worlds, but I sure don't feel that way.
Hugs, Charlie
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Yeah. It IS harder for Bi's coming out. There are sooo few resources or examples or mentors, even fewer than for gay people.
I have a bunch of web resources for Bi's by Bi's, at work. I'll bring them home tomorrow. One truly great site, I think, has something about "anything that moves" in it's title. It's intentionally provacative, and wicked fun as well as positive and forward thinking.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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Nah, I don't think you're repressing something or other. Some people have the feelings sometimes, and others don't. I wouldn't worry about it much either way.
As Freud SHOULD have said, "Sometimes it's JUST a banana!"
Unless you think you have a more general problem about repressing sexual feelings in other ways...
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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It does not in my book.
Aware of the huge sliding scale, I still say I am a gay man who is married by pure chance to a beautiful and wonderful woman.
I am not attracted to females at all. JUST to my wife
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Yeah, well, Tim...if you enjoy making love with your wife, and she's a female, then that TECHNICALLY counts as "Bisexual" near the gay end of the sliding (Ewww...) scale. If '10' is 100% gay with nary a fantasy or an experience with women, then maybe you're what?...err...9.999?
**Giggles**
But the thing about labels is that you yourself should be able to pick your own. So married and gay works for me, whether or not you feel 'bisexual'. That's just a mere technicality!
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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No Message Body
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Nearly all Gay's at one point or another are faced with the delema of whether they should supress their feelings toward other men and toe the line and marry like their fathers did.
The thing is, that is is very hard to ignore the social as well as familial pressure to conform to what society (the general majority) has considered to be 'the right path'... Ewwww.....
The fact of the matter is that, if you are gay and love a woman then fine, love her.... But if you take a woman out of a need to please the family or for appearences sake, then it will indeed be a tough row to hoe.
You see, I truly believe that love, true deep down love can never be wrong. Ever...
Next point, Well I'll try.... OK? As I have never had children, I base this opinion on observation and conversation with parents...
As far as fatherly love goes. That is a thing most inexplicable obscure. Because a fathers feelings toward his children change with each stage of development. By this I mean that as a child grows the childs needs grow with him/her. As the childs circle of experience expands so does a fathers need to protect the child.
Therefore...
With reguard to incestuous feelings toward ones own children; I believe that such feelings are contrary to the instinctive need to protect ones children.
Just my opinion....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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The notion that everybody is supposed to think the same , feel the same and follow the same path is really distructive. People need to have the courage to figure out what is right for themselves and not be entirely controlled by what others think they ought to do.
Persoanally I've tried it both it both ways. I am definitely more gay than streight. What I finally concluded about myself is that I was probably meant to be single. That seems right about 96% of the time. However, who knows what tomorrow may bring.
Here is a bisexual resource site:
http://www.biresource.org/
Richard
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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My own experience is that for me to have erotic feelings toward women they have to be preceeded by feelings of affection. I respond erotically to men I see walking down the street. Once you come to care deeply about a particular individual, the feelings don't fit neatly into simple categories.
Richard
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I totally agree with you, Marc.
I still think I am in love with my wife. And I do not believe that I made a mistake in marrying her. But if we hadn't had children, would I feel the same?
The growth and maturity stages that my children experience does have significant impact in how I regard them. And my reaction is different to each stage with each child. I hope that is a product of experience with the previous. But the need to protect lessens as the child grows in order to allow the child to become adult. I may want to protect them from the increasingly adult hardships that they may face, but then they do not gain the experience necessary for growth. Sometimes it causes very difficult decisions that keep me awake at night wondering if I am doing the right thing, but so far I am very happy with how my kids are growing and maturing.
Hugs, Charlie
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Thanks for sharing, Richard. I'm trying to understand my own feelings/orientation at this point and your comment seems very relevant. I also feel like at some point I will have to explain, at least to my children, if no one else, how I can be gay yet (mostly) happily married. Part of me feels like even if I wanted to come out to someone, most wouldn't consider me gay, based on my actions.
I'm in a similar situation to Tim and agree with his comments. I consider myself gay, not bi, because I don't remember being physically attracted to or turned on by a female for a long time. MAYBE I was bi at the time I married. But, I am able to make love to my wife (and very well, I might add! hehe) because I care so much for her. I don't find her attractive and am not "turned on" until foreplay begins, and really don't want to kiss her until very aroused. Maybe part of it is she was my first, and only, lover and I think that is very special, at least to me.
I'm still trying to figure out how I could ignore/supress the realization that I am gay for over 20 years, even after consciously wondering as a teen. Maybe that will give David something to think about. Hehe.
Oh, Tim, I like the new board - congrats! Hope the bronchitis is fading.
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