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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13785
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Drew had a great expereince. Tom has had one. In the few experiences i have had, so have I.
BUT
Coming out nowadays is a gentle process of choosing whom to come out to, why you are doing it, what you AND they will gain from the expereince, and what you may lose. Kevn, for example, came under work pressure so bad he lost his job.
The scene needs to be right, too. As does your mood.
In the "gay lib" days everyone said "Come out". Some organisations "out" people against their will. But, for all of us, our sexuality is a small part of us, not our total being.
I used to believe that straight people never told you their orientation. I was wrong. Within the first 10 minutes of meeting a heterosexual man or woman you KNOW they are heterosexual. They tell you about children, spouse or lover, and family things. There is an argument that says that gay people should do the same, or they live a lie, especially at work.
Seems to me to be worth a discussion.
Coming out is not a glorious act, in my view. It is simply a gentle (ideally) and necessary process in our becoming at peace internally.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I can't really say what it is to "come out" because I was outed early on. Be that as it may, I've dealt with it, and it's over.
But being out to me is as much as coming out. You and I are always meeting new people and in the process of meeting new people the choice of coming out arrises over and over again. Therefore I don't truly think we are ever totaly out. We do though show glimpses of ourself to those we feel comfortable with.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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Sure I believe that our sexuality is a small part of us (for the majority of us anyway), but coming out is not for everybody. It still contains some VERY ugly possible outcomes that make it out of the question for some of us. Live a lie or die.
If you can accept that you’re gay that will be all the internal peace you’ll ever need and you can convince yourself by asking one question:
If you don’t like it, what can you do about it?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well there are options to "living a lie" as you put it. For one thing, it is a hugely vast world, and a person could move to a place where he/she feels safer, more at ease to come out.
And internal capitulation is hardly internal peace.
So.... If you don't like it, change it.....
Remember... "To thine own self..."
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13785
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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i work with a lot of men and women in the construction trades....so for me it is a constant commin out process. some people that i work with or that work for me i can tell with in seconds of meeting them it would just be a lot better to keep my mouth shut. in my work place my sexuality is not something that i feel i HAVE to share, if some one asks i'll tell em or if they are just there to do a job and move on so be it.
in my personal life comming out really is not some thing that i have made any thing out of. i guess that all goes back to my comming out to my family which did not take it at all well and to this day refuse to speak to me. please dont take that comment to say 'gosh tim i am sorry' cause i am not they choose to go on with there lives and i went on with mine. i have made out far better with my new friends and the family that i have choosen.
i guess my reason for this post is to just say that for the happy comming out situations there are the ugly ones.
come out when you feel it is the best possible thing for you to do in your life and you have thought about the gains and possible losses.
(steps back for the next to speak)
peace
tim...of USA
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13785
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You cannot leave until you have served in the military, and posisbly not even then. Not even for a vacation. Now the Iranian military is probably an unamusing place for a gay guy to be. Islam seems not to want to accept those of us with what the scholars have been known to term "birth defects", and the military seems like a very easy place to be victimised for a shower room glance in the wrong or "too long" direction
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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I don’t think I was clear on something, I meant if you don’t like being gay, what can you do about it
I don’t think I was clear on something, I meant if you don’t like being gay, what can you do about it? You can’t change that and accepting it is far from surrender, after all being gay only means that your sexual preference is different, in other words, you have different taste. Why should that be any different to someone preferring hot chocolate to coffee? By not coming out I meant that you don’t go around saying that you’re gay.
Leaving is not easy at best for many reasons. As Timmy said there may be countries that lock their citizens in (sure about Iran?). Walking to the edge and crossing is only for those who have a death wish cos you could get shot at the border, besides, what guarantee do you have that the country you’ll walk into will welcome you?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I find it rather cavileer of you to refer to ones sexual preferance akin to the difference between hot chocolate and coffee.
Being gay is more than it's sexual aspect, it is a way of life. For myself it is my identity.
And I know how hard it is to leave. But it can always be done as long as there is a true committment to do it.
But I suppose there are those that think saying "being gay" is kewel for the moment and never make a single move to discover what it means to live a gay lifestyle.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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as for me i am far more than my sexuality. me sexual prefence is such a very small part of who i am i cant agree with the idea of me being gay as anthing that huge.
i define myself as a mna who happenes to be gay....no more no less...being gay is not my life style it is just another small part that makes the whole...ME.
but this is just how i feel and i am in no way making light of others opinion about there sexuallity.
peace
tim...of USA
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That so many out there do think so matter-of-factly about themselves. But you see, living a bay lifestyle is the most natural thing for a gay man.
I have a wonderful life-mate Who cares as much for me as I do for him. We have built a life together from litteraly nothing and we are happily in business together.
We are active (as a gay couple) in community affairs and spend time with gay advocacy groups.
I believe that progress in gay culture is held back by individuals content with not making a presence in their communities. To just subsist in a place is NOT being a part of it.
As far as my (and Kevin's) sexuality, well that is a private thing. If I go to the bank, I don't ask the teller if she prefers the missionary position or with whom she practices it with, and she emparts the same courtesy to me and she does it sincerity and with dighnity.
Here in the town in which we live, I am well known as a person that is a gay man.
It was said by Christopher Isherwood, http://www.huntington.org/LibraryDiv/Isherwood.htm
It seems to me that the real clue to your sexual orientation lies in your romantic feelings rather than in your sexual feelings. If you are really gay, you are able to fall in love with a man, not just enjoy having sex with them.
I believe that Mr. Isherwood had the right idea. So I ask you all to think about it? Do you have it in you to love a man or do you just enjoy having sex with them?
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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personally if anyone wants to stand up and "wave" a flag and tell the world that they are gay i will defend there right to do so to the bitter end, but for me my sexuality is exactly that MY sexuallity. i would perfer people to know me as tim and not the gay guy named tim...if that makes any sense at all.
it would be totally awesome if this world we lived in put a lot less improtance of others sexuallity and sort of minded there own bussiness, but as long as we as gay men exist being defined as diffrent we will not be afforded the same rights and liberities as the str8 world. its always the smaller group of "diffrent" people that are singled out. i choose to make the "system" work for me as opposed to fighting the "system".
but again this is just my opinion and the way i go on day to day.
peace
tim...of USA
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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back in the 70's and 80's at a lot of gay rpide rallies i used to hear a chant...I am here, I am queer, Get used to it!!!
my personal feeling about that is.... your here, your queer, who cares!!!!
but again this my little humble opinion
peace
tim...of USA
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13785
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My Iranian information is from an Iranian who is "stuck" inside Iran. If you can show me how he is mistaken, then please do so. He wants and needs to be out of the country.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What I did say is that I am proud to be who I am, where I am and when I am.
I feel little or no need to hide behind a facade in order to justify myself.
Nor do I see a need for a call to rally round the gay flag.
What I do see a need for is to show pride in how I live my life, which I do the best and the fullest of my ability.
Opinion, humble or not.... It is the best I can offer this ball we all live on.....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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never said "you" did any flag waving or anything for that matter.
and i take offence to your comment " need to hide behind a facade".... in my opinion there is no right or wrong way to be gay. i am me, gay or not i am me...its that PLAIN and SIMPLE.
sigh...i fear that this conversation is going to fade into agreening to disagree.
so i will end it with
peace to you how ever you choose to be gay and i'll keep being my self who by some twist of fate "happen to be gay"
peace
tim...of USA
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Marc - can you define "gay lifestyle" as you understand it? To a great degree, I think it's a myth, but I know I'm uninformed in many ways. There is certainly a sterotype, and maybe many gay people fit the sterotypical "lifestyle", but at least here on the net I've met so many gay people who certainly have very little in common when it comes to their lifestyles. I'm also thinking that you AREN'T really thinking of "the stereotype" either, so please, educate me!
"What I do see a need for is to show pride in how I live my life, which I do the best and the fullest of my ability." I certainly agree with that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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For me a "gay lifestyle" means to live as a gay man.
In other words, I don't hide behind a facade of str8 (so called) respectability.
I try to be as active in local gay issues and organizations as I have time for.
I try to further the cause of gay rights by demonstrating in my daily life that gays are like everyone else, with the same wants, needs and desires and problems.
For others, a gay "lifestyle" may mean something totaly different, and I am not saying that one way is better or even preferable over another. What I am saying is that for anyone to live a gay "lifestyle", in whatever form they choose to model for themself, they need to be comfortable with who they are. For their own sake.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I'm trying to decide how, or if, this applies to me. I really don't like labels and I think especially this one because by your definition "gay lifestyle" is a good thing - a self-respect, self-acceptance, honesty thing and in that regard I'm "there right with you." On the other hand, I think some would consider it a negative label and very few would consider me and several of our other regulars to be living a "gay lifestyle" in any way. Maybe this is more of a philosophy and less of a lifestyle per se?
Although "hiding" and "facade" are negative words, I guess it is all relative and in the end it's up to me and God to judge my decisions, not anyone else.
So, thanks for getting me thinking - a little introspection is a good thing!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Then it works for you. Like I said previously, it is up to the individual so set his own standard.
I know there are many gay men on the message board that are married and as long as the choices "they" made work for them, then who is to judge any right or wrongness into it. NO ONE. Because this is a personal choice and is not a thing to be evaluated.
As long as there is compassion and tollerance for openly gay people within these households then they are doing their part to better the gay community. If they raise their children, instilling in them the confidence to make their own choices in their lives and to be accepting of the choices made by others then every one benefits.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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No Message Body
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Yes, I agree. But, are we somehow "obligated" to come out to others? Like the top of this thread said, personal choice with many safety issues, but I think it's best for everyone - me, society, my family - if I am as "honest" as I can be in my current situation, to say what I really think and feel and I don't see many real safety issues for myself.
For me, this isn't "hiding" so much as waiting for the right time and place to tell my kids and family and "allow" friends to know a bit more about me. My wife knows because our relationship demanded that honesty and it's actually brought us closer together. My kids don't know because they haven't found their own sexuality which I don't want to "influence" them even though I doubt that's possible and, more importantly, they aren't mature enough to know what to discuss with whom and I care more about the effects on them than on me.
Am I rationalizing for my own comfort? Perhaps a bit, but hopefully not much. I am trying to help make people "receptive" to diversity in the meantime and learn as much about "my peers" as I can.
For me to "come out" is to break some sterotypes, to prevent people from being able to say "I don't know any gay people" or "I don't have any gay friends" and to realize that sexual orientation may or may not imply much about a person's lifestyle - we shouldn't make assumptions about others based on categories or labels.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I wouldn't call it an obligation but more a courtesy. What I mean is like Tim USA said he doesn't see the need to make casual tradesmen aware of his orientation. I don't tell the cable repair man either. But I don't remove the gay art in the house either...
I understand your decision to come out to your wife but not your children because of their age. It is just as important to not unduly influence young people with issues they are not mature enough to fully understand.
Thare are concerns for safety of course, and to that I stand behind my position that one can always move to a safer place. Even if someone is trapped in a situation where just leaving would put the person at risk. To that I say that if they want the freedom badly enough they will do whatever is necessary to obtain it. Also, to me the issue of freedom is separate from the issue of coming out or gay lifestyles.
For myself, a long time ago I fought for my right to "be gay", for my right to be the person I was meant to be. I don't look at it so much as being stereotypical but rather a reaffirmation of my success against the system of the time.
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I wouldn't call it an obligation but more a courtesy. What I mean is like Tim USA said he doesn't see the need to make casual tradesmen aware of his orientation. I don't tell the cable repair man either. But I don't remove the gay art in the house either...
I understand your decision to come out to your wife but not your children because of their age. It is just as important to not unduly influence young people with issues they are not mature enough to fully understand.
Thare are concerns for safety of course, and to that I stand behind my position that one can always move to a safer place. Even if someone is trapped in a situation where just leaving would put the person at risk. To that I say that if they want the freedom badly enough they will do whatever is necessary to obtain it. Also, to me the issue of freedom is separate from the issue of coming out or gay lifestyles.
For myself, a long time ago I fought for my right to "be gay", for my right to be the person I was meant to be. I don't look at it so much as being stereotypical but rather a reaffirmation of my success against the system of the time.
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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mt
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 93
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To me sexuality preference is like that. As for the life style, well, that’s another matter. What you’ve said is all very nice but as I said it’s not for everyone. If someone so much as smells that I’m gay... (shuddering).
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Coming out is personal and a process, not an act 
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