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I apologize for getting into a divisive issue. I hope anyone who disagrees, says so. And if you are just looking on from the outside, I want the dissent, and the agreement. Please don't look at these opinions as an attack on me, on you, or on a position. It is simply a discussion to provoke thought, yours and mine.
I value each of your opinions.
Here goes.
Standing at the end of your street along with two of your neighbors, you discuss the issues of the day.
You ask, "Hey what do you think of Bob down the block"?
Chuck says, “Heard him yelling at his kids, he must be a mean guy”.
“Yea” Jim exclaimed, “He doesn’t even go to our church, I think he goes to one of those strange ones across town. Say guys, I am going shooting later, want to go”?
“Wonder if he is into guns too, we should find out”.
Chuck looking a bit startled, “You know, Bob is unpredictable, we don’t know just what he might do next. I think we should go down to his end of the street ant kill him. Are you guys with me”?
_______________________
Would this go over on your street? Should this go over in a Government? Since when is it OK for the largest seller of weapons of mass destruction in the world, to suddenly decide one of the customers has to give everything back that they bought, or die?
Some part of me is totally afraid of a conclusion that I am scared to speak of out loud. Are we about to be witness to a war between two fundamentalist factions of two major religions? Neither faith is pro-war at it’s core, why are we letting these faiths to be twisted into justification tools?
I am not saying “Bob” is not a bad guy. But since when are we judge, jury, and executioner. I believe that diplomacy with the people of that region of the world is the best tool, for they are the ones that live with it more than we do. Why do they hate us? Is it just possible that we have done some bad things in the past?
Again, I am sorry. But I think mankind has done quite enough killing. We should be advanced enough to find a better way than war.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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I think you are overlooking several blatent facts..these people seem to fuel themselves with HATE--UNREASONABLE HATE.Also these people feel justified in teaching their children to hate. In good ol USA we see the effects of religious fueled hate. Burying ones head in the sand and expousing unconditional brotherly love seems unrealistic.It would seem that many refuse to do the unthinkable and that is caustic surgery.A cancer that is HELL-BENT on corrupting the world has got to be rooted out and excised.These people are not going to change their spots. They will continue to bully thier own people and spread thier corrupt influence unless corraled...Like common school bullies, only by putting the fear of GOD into them will things change.. robert
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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What do we do if Bob is known to be a killer? And it is proven by track record to be unresponsive to diplomatic overtures. What now?
We are sure that Bob has molested, raped and killed in the past. He even stole his neighbour's house for a while, and set fore to his garden when he was forced out by the authorities.
How do we deal with Bob?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I look at a country that takes it's policy where ever it wants. Whether or not it was ever asked.
I see a government bending over backward for the cause of big business.
I see a government remote in its resources bought and paid for with little reguard for its customs and heritage.
Which one is really wrong? I wonder.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Poor Native Americans.....
Yup... It happens in the best of neighborhoods.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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BOB JUST DOESNT DO NASTY THINGS--HE IS A NICE GUY JUST SUFFERING FROM THE EFFECTS OF BEING TURNED INTO A FROG BY THAT NASTY TIMMY
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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as a proud American and as a confirmed warmonger I should take some exception to marcs post but I WILL NOT. History is my ally.It would seem that there are some people with a poor vision of the past. May I remind those who so soon forget that America SAVED THE WORLDS ASS AT WW2......Europe still bears the scars. As to big business,well that same big business in its bumbling and evil ways seems to have contributed in some measure to the betterment of the world and its people...Nothing is perfect and never will be but what can be perfect is zero tolorance to despotism,tyranny and murder. With all due respect,I would suggest that some people spend a few months living in the middle east.I suspect their tunes will change.. Very respectfully robert bryce
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None of the millions of people protesting this possible war seem to be defending Iraq's actions now or in the past.
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It makes me uncomfortable that there is only one "super-power" right now.
There's not much difference for me between fanatics of any of the major religions or creeds. They may not be "right", but remember that "might doesn't make right" either.
And small groups of fanatics have always fought richer and better equipped adversaries quite successfully. Look at the North Vietnamese. The Palestinians. The IRA. The Visigoths against the Romans. The other guerilla groups who fought against mighty armies and didn't lose.
If you give people enough to live for, they won't be so eager to kill themselves in suicide bombings or in wars.
What if we took all the money being spent on this possible war and simply gave it away to those most in need?
America is known to be incredibly generous in some ways, yet doesn't pay more than a fraction of it's UN "dues", doesn't sign global environmental treaties, doesn't agree to stop making and selling land mines. America has only a small fraction of the world's population, but uses huge percentages of the world's resources. That's part of the reason that Americans are envied and hated.
As was said about the war on Afganistan (which also hasn't been terrifically successful so far), bomb them with bread and books.
"Thou shalt not kill."
"I shall die. But that is all that I shall do for Death..." (Edna St. Vincent Millay)
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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i just get a kick out of all the idealism on this board.With tongue in cheek,I HAVE to ask--what planet are you living on. I repeat,I am not bashing or flaming anyone,but when someone suggests that we just drop food and supplies to these prople instead of bombs,I have to wonder....These leaders are CORRUPT. They are DESPOTS, EVIL DOERS and MURDERERS...They,in a heartbeat will steal any goodies that we send and nothing will change.....Oh I get it now,lets reward all school bullies, shower them with privlige.Lets reward all the muggers,rapests, armed robbers and murderers-giving them the green light. When will some learn,or at the very least wake up! Now you have done it..I have just puked all over my keyboard. rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Sorry Robert, but I just don't see as much daylight as you do between the two sides, Sadam teaches people we are evil and should be hated .... Sounds like the same words that come from George W. Bush.
Think of it from both sides.
Never said he was a good guy, but this moral superiority of our Gov't sounds like the same stuff they say about us infidels.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Ok Rob, wich side do you mean? hehe
And if it is our side, then why don't we do the same with every tyrannical Gov't? Why just this one? China has more human rights abuses? North Korea actually has the banned weapons? Zimbabwe is doing worse things to simple farmers?
Why just this one guy? Why not Osama? Why now?
I see your point ..... you say we must be the policemen (Note: Bush said during the campaign he was opposed to that)
but why do we enforce so selectively?
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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THATS THE WHOLE POINT SWEETHEART I HAVE A VERY GOOD MEMORY AND I KNOW WHAT DESPOTISM AND MURDER ARE,ALSO I KNOW WHAT CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS ARE...WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT,I SAY PLEASE GET ONES HEAD OUT OF THE SAND. THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OPINION AND TRUTH....AMERICA HAS BEEN STANDING BETWEEN UTTER CHAOS AND FREEDOM FOR THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH AND DOES NOT NEED BASHING BY ANYONE WITH THEIR HEADS UP THEIR ASSES......PLEASE,LETS JUST PUT AN END TO USA BASHING AND JUST SAY NO TO VIOLENCE AND WAR.HOWEVER IF ITS WAR,THEN LETS ALL FIGHT THAT WAR AND GET ON WITH OUR LIVES. robert PS=========I AM NOT==I REPEAT==BASHING OR FLAMING YOU...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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when prez bush gets through pounding sand up the United Nations collective asses and those pussies get the message finally I suppose some crap will hit the fan.I further suppose that it takes guts and tons of moral fiber to stand for truth and justice.....By the way sweetheart feel free to spend a few bucks and visit both GROUND ZEROS...The one in the USA and the one in Japan. I HAVE!!!!!!!!!! robert bryce
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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PS my addy is rbryce@tbi.net all flames and opinions are welcome however as i am in a very bad mood, flamers will get toasted......r
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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But I can't agree with you here. Sometimes evil must be recognized as such, and only fools and cowards sit by and watch evil take over their world. I am not speaking theoretically: I am speaking as someone who has sat with his family in a sealed room, all of us wearing gas masks, and listening to a scud missile thundering over our apartment. (Luckily, it overshot its mark and fell harmlessly into the sea.)
Did the USA deliberately provoke 9/11?
Remember Munich. Some 20 million people died because a British Prime Minister so much wanted 'peace in our time'. Thank God there was a Churchill around at the time.
In his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" William Shirer recounts that when Hitler decided to retake the Rhineland (which the League of Nations forbade him to do) he told his cabinet that "if they oppose us, we get the hell out of there!" Of course they didn't oppose him.
On the front page of that same book Shirer quotes the American philosopher George Santayana: "Peoples who forget their history are doomed to relive it."
The lesson to be learned of what happened 70 years ago is that evil must be confronted boldly and fearlessly.
I am a liberal, but I am not prepared to be a foolish liberal.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what exactly is that truth? Where is the justice? Mostly I for one would love to know just what IS the american way?
Ground zero? Both of them now... Hmmmmm..... Interesting..... Was this on a tour? Did you get a continental breakfast? Or was it on the American Plan?
I can't really see much correlation between the two references.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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If it was on a tour, kudos to the tour organiser.
I think the American Way is AmWay, isn't it? Find 5 friends who can take a basement full of stock and then find five friends of their own to lose?
The world has zero justice in it. If it had justice then we woudl live in peace at all times, have full employment, no starvation (Hmm, am I back to AmWay here?), decent education, no cultural or religious divides. It would not be "The American Way" but would be the way of life.
Now, just to get the traffic tracking software working, I am a theroetical communist. Theoretical because (Again like AnWay?) it doesn't work. I would LOVE "To each according to his needs and from each according to his abilities", but it fails when one "each" wants more than he needs, and doe snot give of his abilities.
And this is as relevant to tinpot dictators such as Hussein and Mugabe, as to people who wish to be seen as world class such as the other middle eastern leaders, notably Israel and Palestine, and then it moves on the President Bush, and Blair his Vice President.
For years in the UK we have suffered terrorism from the IRA. I would like to mention that The American Way has funded one hell of a lot of cemtex for those bastards. That is a side issue, but I suppose we ought to invade the USA since the country is obviously dangerous 
The Moral Majority wish to stamp out terrorism. This is tilting at windmills. It cannot happen. It's like killing the hydra by trying to lop off its heads. Others say "Bomb them with food parcels" From 40,000 feet those hurt too!
There will alwasy be some asshole fanatic, usually categorised as "some fag", who wants glory. Bin Laden was a poor little rich boy, not a crusader. Look an Bader Meinhoff, The Red Brigades, all the little tinpot euro terror organisations.
It is with deep regret that I have to agree that a proven terrorist must perish by his own morality. As an exmaple, I woudl have bound Richard Reid (Read?) to a pole in the desert, replaced his trainer, and lit the fuse. It was what he wanted.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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timmy please forgive me,but this jerk needs to be not only flamed but roasted.he seems not to have any concept of freedom and what price has been paid to preserve that freedom. My dear sweet friend it wasnt a tour but it was a journey that my father took me on.several of his brothers had lost their lives and he wanted me to remember them.Also that vision seemed to shape my life for they had a profound impact. I do hope that GOD forgives you for your stupidity,although I personally find it unforgivable and offensive..You insult us all......rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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Not gonna forgive flames. Just as I ask him not to snipe, I ask you not to flame or name call. Discuss well rather than argue. You may or may not change minds, but it provides a better set of reasons
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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wont happen again Timmy and I am sorry that I broke the rules. You have been very patient with me and I respect that very much. Not all Americans are like their political leaders and it sometimes is very frustrating to have to put up with these jerks(pol.leaders) Most decent Americans have a heavy cross to bear. We do however resent criticsm.I lashed out because I felt that we ALL were being insulted. robert
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What possible concept have you of my situation or my feelings toward freedom? Do you think that war is any solution? It takes only a single bullet to kill a man, why then must we spend hundreds of millions to invade a sand trap?
I am sick to death of seeing all the opportunistic flags waving in this country because of the 911 attack. If the patriotism was there before then why didn't we see it?
If that "vision" shaped your life to such a degree then I truly pitty you. If he had brought you to a circus, would that mean that you would aspire to be a clown? That would have been an admirable ambition, making children smile and laugh.
Yes make the children laugh....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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Coz THEY made the flags all the Americans bought so patriotically
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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YA GOT A GOOD POINT THERE TIMMY BUT IS THERE A PLACE WHERE WE CAN SEND THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE UNWILLING TO UNDERSTAND IT TAKES COMMITMENT AND COURAGE TO PRESERVE FREESOM?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You know, I have spent a large part of my life looking at opinion in one form or another. It was for all intents and purposes my job.
I have learned that when people expound on commitment they have little. I have also learned that courage wains along with ones resolve.
What have you done to improve our "American" condition? Please enlighten me?
Remember, it takes action to effect change. What have you changed?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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i have listed my e-mail address in one of my posts. i refuse to continue this debate in this forum out of respect for tim. rbryce@tbi.net crank up your keyboard if you wish and address me there and not on this forum out of respect for others.Armor yourself well.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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WELL GUYS I GUESS WE ALL HAVE WITNESSED WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A SNAKE CRAPS ON A TREE--IT LEAVES A MARC rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Can you do tricks as well?
Just wondering
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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All kidding aside.....
I'd like to know......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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sure can guy i tilt at windbags and windmills on a white charger with the angels of GOD cheering rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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We've resorted to name-calling and personally attacking those who disagree with us?
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Ok Robert, but when do we own up to giving him the weapons in the first place? Where was G. W. 's dad as Vice President when gas was used on both sides?
Some fault rests with our own Gov't, but we are not bombing ourselves.
Lots of bad people in th world. Does not mean we should play God and kill them.
Kevin
P.S. Let us at least keep peace between you and I. I respect your right to your views. Best wishes.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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And please debate, not fight. Robert When i SHARE my views with you, they are an attack on any one.
Did anyone ever hear two wrongs don't make a right?
Please lets not kill for peace.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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NA,I ACTUALLY LOVE THE GUY EVEN IF I NEVER MET HIM...ALL I EVER DID WAS PUSH HIM TO THE GROUND AND TICKLE HIS FUNNY BONE..BY THE WAY GUYS FEEL FREE TO POKE AT ME IF IT HELPS.FRIENDS TEST EACH OTHER TESTING LIMITS.THIS SEEMS TO BE A PLACE OF FRIENDSHIP WITH A LOT OF LOVE SPRINKLED HERE AND THERE. I WOULD HOPE THAT WE ALL DO NOT TAKE THINGS TOO SERIOUSLY.THAT IS NOT TO MINIMISE OUR OWN BELIEFS. I REALLY THINK THAT TIMMY HAS A GOOD THING HERE,IT SPEAKS WELL OF THE MAN.THAT IS WHY HE IS MY FRIEND AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN SUPPORTIVE.BEAUTIFUL FRIENDSHIPS CAN AND ARE FORGED HERE,ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT IT TAKES A LITTLE HEAT TO TEMPER THAT STEEL. robert
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I simply don't agree with the means, but to me the end is a great goal.
I also find the the vauge links to wars of the past a weak justification. This is today, the here and now. Should we say everyone who does bad should be killed because they might turn out like hitler?
Bad people need to be dealt with and their impact minimized in any creative ways we can muster. We are smart people. Maybe we can come up with a way resolve our troubles without killing? Seems like fear is guiding us to violence, be brave my friends.
I will not post in this thread again as long as people want to make a war of words here too.
Give peace a chance.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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I don't mean to stir the pot but ................... 
Re: Further Thoughts to ponder... 
Re: Further Thoughts to ponder... 
Hey, that sniped. Unfair discussion tactics 
Re: Reasonably clever...... 
Please don't think that starting a war it the road to peace ..... 
