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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Greetings.
I'm gay and married. My wife found out about me from my sleep talking. This was four years ago. Since then, she's outed me to the church leader, and from there, I've been rail-roaded through church-sponsored reparative therapy.
Therapy only made my longing for men intensify to the point that I've been secreting away cash for the day when I have enough nerve to leave the family. We have three out of the nest and one twelve year old.
I have alot of anger towards organized "Christians", since it was the church that advised me to marry 26 years ago to cure me of homosexuality. Now that same church counts me as a cured statistic, and I get called in periodically for questioning about my success: this is, to me, a continual witch hunt.
I can't figure out how to go about leaving. What do I say? Moving out while she's away seems so cowardly.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have a simple question for you before offering any form of advice.
Please start by ignoring the church, and the rest of it.
The question I have is "Do you love your wife?"
There is no hidden agenda in this question. And no hint of judgement whatever you answer.
I do have a supplementary question. "Does your wife love you?"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Neph
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 23
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Hi Brent. A sincere welcome to this place. Please feel at home and among friends - several of whom are inn a situation similar to yours.
I think that as far as your main question is concerned what timmy has asked is very pertinent, and I would hesitate to respond - publicly or privately - before knowing how the relationship stands.(I would add that it would also be pertinent to know about the relationship between you and the 12 year-old.
But there is one thing that you wrote that I think is very important and needs a rebuttal that everyone can see and know about. You wrote: She's outed me to the church leader, and from there, I've been rail-roaded through church-sponsored reparative therapy.
Here are some relevant excerpts from a resolution adopted by the American Medical Association in October 1999:
Whereas, Numerous organizations have recently used mass media such as newspapers and television to make dubious claims about changing the sexual orientation of homosexual individuals through prayer and other means; and...
Whereas, The aforementioned studies above and others findings were the basis for the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973, with the American Psychological Association to follow with a similar action two years later; and
Whereas, A review by Douglas Haldeman revealed that homosexual subjects who have undergone reparative (conversion) therapy failed treatment, since such subjects who had supposedly converted to heterosexuality still demonstrated sexual attraction to the same gender; and
Whereas, The film documentary One Nation Under God exposed the programs of reparative (conversion) therapy organizations to be fraudulent and inductive of psychological scarring in patients who have tried it; and ...
Whereas, The Gay and Lesbian Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the National Association of Social Workers, all have policy and position statements condemning reparative (conversion) therapy either as harmful, ineffective, or unethical, or discusses the issue of societal homophobia as the real cause of a patient’s discomfort with his or her sexual orientation rather than trying to change sexual orientation itself; therefore be it
RESOLVED,
That the AMA does not support sexual orientation reparative (conversion) therapy, but rather supports efforts to address homophobia.
Reparative therapy is dangerous humbug, and the real psychological disorder is the homophobia demonstrated by some obscurantist so-called 'religious' denominations.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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You're not the "older guy" Brent that worked for Honeywell that I had a thing for in high school, are you? Heh heh. Um, sorry, for my irreverence.
Speaking of irreverence, I've very curious WHY you care what the church thinks - is your wife very deeply involved with the church? My understanding (and practice) of Chrisianity is love, forgiveness, trying not to sin (hurt self, God, others) and allowing God alone to judge, for example.
Do you feel obligated to do as the church orders? I'm sure I'll offend a few folks, but a church that orders and demands and judges sounds more like a cult than a place to share and teach godly principles and faith.
Do you have any real guilt or is it your feelings and thoughts or past events alone that are on trial here?
I hope you've read the Gay and Married thread - that may get you thinking about some options, but of course everyone's situation is different.
I do hope you'll tell us a bit more and also become a friend.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think this depends on how one was raised. Many people confuse very easily the concept of faith and of religion. Church is religion, but often embraces faith and makes use of it for its own ends.
Some peole require both church and faith in order to live complete lives, others require one, or the other or neither.
Whataver the case one should never seek to remove a thing that has been a part of one's self without deep thought, and if a man of faith without contemplation and prayer. This includes the church one was raised in or attends today.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Hi Brent and welcome. I'm glad you found your way here. Love the Haikus! O.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Yes.
I love my wife. Of course there's a catch here, that y'all will likely understand. I love her like I love my sister, or more closely to how I love my mother. I appreciate how much she loves me, and her falling in love and marrying a closeted gay man and living in this facade for 26 years makes me tremble with guilt and shame.
Yes.
I love my wife. And forcing myself to have sex with her so she won't worry about me having sex with men makes me physically and emotionally sick for 2-3 days afterward. It's not at all like afterglow.
She loves me, but holds me to the church's position that I can be repaired if I really, really want to badly enough. If she finds out that I will no longer submit to reparative therapy, well, she will not accept this, and will "turn me in" to the witch hunt leader of the church.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Thank you for taking the time to post the AMA statement on reparative therapy. It was such a relief and delight to read! There was some good that came from it: the therapist was a real hotty! He'd wear very thin dress trousers and non-supportive boxers, and he did not sit behind a desk, if you get the picture. It was worth the 90 minute drive.
I will refer to the AMA quote over and over!!!
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Um, well, yes, of course. If the guy at Honeywell was a dashing hunk of beefcake, then it was me. Glad to see you here.
O.K. No. never worked at Honeywell. I live in the midwest, USA.
I care what the church thinks because if I leave the family my children and wife will be devistated because of what they've been taught every Sunday since they were born. If I can figure out how to leave, I will sever all of my connection with the church: I have learned from sad experience that it is largly poppycock. Hmm. was this a Freudian pun or what.
As far as my guilt, it is based on my desire to have a long term sexual and emotional relationship with a man. I haven't really done the deed yet. I figure that even though this marriage is a disaster and a sham, the marriage does in fact still exist on paper. But, oh, that will change if I can get out of the house.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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You're absolutely right. And in my case it will be emotionally and spiritually necessary for me to live faithfully without participating in organized religion. Unless there are some really really cute guys there, at a gay-affirming church. I can see getting up on Sunday morning for that, I do.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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So, from me at least, advice is not a thing you will get. not per se. What I hope to do is to start you looking at the marriage from a framework outside the marriage.
I am either luckier than you, or more determined to maintain the relationship. I suspect both, because i have th eluck to be married to a lady who accepts, though dislikes, the fact that I am not heterosexual at all.
There is a huge, physical need to be in a man's arms. I know that from profound personal experience of feeling it. A woman's arms are just not a replacement. I knew this all my life. You know it too, all yours. What you do about it depends on your willpower.
It helps if you are by nature a "top" or are "versatile". Horrible words, really, but they mean that you are the one who penetrates, not theone who is penetrated. By the way there is nothing to read into either enjoyable position about maleness. It is posisble to lose youorself in love making with either gender. Truly it is, but to do so requires an act of commitment. It can be done.
You sound beyond wanting to do this, though, probably because of the history of religious abuse. http://www.truluck.com may help here, too. You are who you are, and it seems to me that your subconcious is making a statment, perhaps louder than it need, but a statement nonetheless.
Which church? Southern Baptists? Email David (posts elsewhere here) who is a minister and ask about his church, if church you must have. A simple faith is easier. God made us ALL in his image. ALL. No exceptions. And he did it for his purposes. Or so I believe. Others have different beliefs, and they have the right to those beliefs.
Guilt, shame and other negative emotions have no place in your life. It may be that a good, unbiased counsellor with no gay axe to grind would benefit you both as a final stage, but it does sound as though the marriage from your viewpoint is over.
If it is over, then it needs to be done well. She deserves your love and consideration, and support. And not in anger. You have a 12 year old child who will be converted to hating you if you do this badly.
By the way, the witch hunt leader of the church may be told clearly "You may go and fuck yourself", you know.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Darren
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 190
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Hi Brent,
It seams to me that you are caught in a real pickle. I am gay and married, and so one would think that I would be in a good situation to help. Unfortunately, my circumstances are almost the opposite of yours. My wife accepts me for who I am, and altough she is religious, she thinks nothing of your church's beliefs regarding homosexuals. Both of us are doubting our beliefs, and we can always talk about it.
Back to your original post for help, you need to handle this in a manner that you can be proud of. The only way that I can see this is by using the truth to create a frank dialog with your wife. This may lead to some fights. From what I can gather, the truths are:
1. You love your wife very much
2. You are gay, you love men and nothing is going to change this.
3. This act of 'rail-roading' has caused you tremendous pain. It is an act of discrimination that needs to stop.
4. You wish to be accepted for who you are and not for what the others believes that you can be.
5. Your personal happiness is suffering, and you need to change your lifestyle in a way where you can be accepted.
6. You want nothing more to do with her/your church
There are probably more that you can fill in yourself. In giving the following advice, I am assuming that living with a wife that accepts you is preferable (to leaving). If you want to move out, I guess it needs to be done, but the truth can still be used to explain why. I just know in my case, I could not see myself being happier on my own. My wife gives me so much.
This may seam strange, but I think you need to have your wife make the choice and not you. She needs to leave this church and find some other one that you can accept (and accepts you for who you are). She also needs to accept you as a gay man. If she is not willing to do both, then obviously there is a hard decision to make. To me this issue is nothing about religion; it is about discrimination and acceptance.
I do wish you the best and keep us posted!
Darren
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Welocme Brent.
I hope everything works out for you. We are here for you as support.
Leaving is a very personal decision, and I don't feel qualified to give any advice. Except to look deep into your heart and do what you know to be the right thing.
Best of luck.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Welcome Brent It took a lot of courage to post. All kinds of well ment advice. I too could be in your shoes.I guess I got lucky,as I could never live with a woman let alone marry one. You are in some serious pain and I think most of us can relate. I am sorry to hear about your sad church experience,does not speak well for organized religion. Please be true to YOURSELF and to keep your trust in GOD...He will guide you. robert
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Thanks to you, Darren, for your thoughts and e-friendship. It is a lonely, lonely netherworld that I live in, since I do not fit in the hetero-world, and I do not fit in the local gay culture because I'm married.
You're quite a lucky fella, to be married to an understanding wife. There's no way my wife will leave this church. She's as dyed in the wool as they come... if you or anyone knows of a site that lists really really good ways to leave.... I suppose that wouldn't really help, either.
Part of the problem here is in fact that my wife doesn't want to make me leave, or make a choice about asking me to leave. Oh, that would be a wonderful thing! To hear her tell me to get out! I can hear myself answering, "can ya give me ten minutes to collect my things?"
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Thanks for your warm words. How does one find the right thing to do in his heart, when the right thing makes you the bad guy? I know there is no answer to this. Thanks for caring.
Brent
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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This is off the topic here, but something incredibly wonderful happened, and I want to share it with y'all. It is on a very personal level, and it is a marvelous thing to feel good about having a group of friends to share it with.
You may have already heard this in the news, but this afternoon Elizabeth Smart was found alive in Sandy, Utah. She is my cousin Lois' daughter. I got calls from as far away as Hawaii from folks telling me to turn on the television. I cried for about thirty minutes in unbelief. I must sheepishly admit that I had given her up for dead.
Thanks for making me feel so comfortable among y'all. Thanks for letting me share this news.
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Is the 12 year old a boy or girl-it does make a difference. As long as one bases his thoughts and actions with honor and dignity,things WILL work out.Please do what is best for YOU and your child....Question--is this church a cult,sounds like it because of the control element.I mean no disrespect here. rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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My last child at home, 12 years old, is a boy. He is very well socialized at school and in the neighborhood. An A student, a member of the school Brain-Bowl team. Plays (USA)football and is on the local wrestling team. And yes, I very much enjoy getting to watch all the older boys wrestle at the meets..
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Hi Brent. I've been trying for a couple of days to respond to your post, but couldn't make my response make sense. I am also gay and married. I love my wife and intend to remain married. My wife does not know. Or perhaps she does know and simply would prefer to think it isn't true. We've not discussed it. I have tried on several occasions to bring it up. Each time she changes the topic before I can actually get out the words.
I've read your posts and you sound almost as though you could tolerate remaining married if it were not for the church. You don't want to hurt her or your family. You don't want to make the decision yourself and would be relieved if she made it for you.
I cannot advise you on whether or not you should remain married. That's your decision along with your wife. But there is one thing I would ask you to consider. Tell her you would like to leave the church. It seems to be the greatest source of your discomfort. She can remain or try to find another church with you. She may accept this decision, she may reject it. But you would not then be the bad guy.
If you make the church the central issue, then your homosexuality could not be the excuse for the breakup of your marriage should she decide that you cannot remain married. Instead it would be the church. Should she then try to blame it on your sexuality, you can tell her you have always been gay and that you gave that up to be married to her. You were quite content to remain married and faithful. It will be she who is unwilling to compromise. She who is unwilling to give up a church (not religion) for her husband. She who decided to end the marriage.
Just a thought.
Think good thoughts,
e
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warren c. e. austin
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Likes it here |
Location: Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 247
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My sentiments as well.
I met the woman I would have married; but I was already committed to my lover, and although I could quite easily have forsaken him in favour of her, the fact of the matter was I loved him more.
Had I married her, I would have remained faithful to her, just as I had remained faithful to my lover throughout the years he and I were together; but, that is the only element of choice in the equation. Once's sexuality doesn't enter in to it at all.
You simply have to determine whether you love her, or not; and to what extent, if you do; and whether she is willing to accept your misgivings about the nature of your Church and the brand of "faith" that it practices, and further your desire to change to another more accepting of who "you" are, and the faith that you hold sacred.
Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
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warren c. e. austin
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Likes it here |
Location: Toronto, Ontario, CANADA
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 247
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I have been following this breath-taking news on CNN (through my Netscape Browser - of course) most of the late afternoon and on into the early evening.
This is truly a wonderful day for the family!
Warren C. E. Austin
Toronto, Canada
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I just saw it on the local news. It would be hard to not give up hope after that long. I didn't hear the whole story, but hope she is well emotionally and physically.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Robert - Why do you think it makes a difference whether the child is a son or daughter? Not necessarily debating - just curious.
Some people do consider even some well-established organized religions to be "cults" - a matter of where you draw the line, I suppose.
Brent - If your wife could accept you - tried her best to accept you, let you ignore the church, and didn't expect you to do anything you felt was unnatural for you, would the relationship be worth salvaging for the friendship and companionship? Could you continue to avoid a relationship outside the marriage? I'm not saying this is what is best, just wondering if it's a possibility worth considering.
It seems like she needs to either compromise, choose you, or choose the church, if you are open to being "chosen" at this point. If you stayed "faithful", you would also be making a huge compromise, of course.
I explained to my wife just the other night (I wasn't in the mood) that I don't think anyone should ever have sex because it's "expected" or due to guilt or manipulation - it should be mutually consensual each time. If you are "up" for compromise, mutual masterbation might work - you could read stories while she watches you and you try to ignore her? Well, life is full of compromise! I did find my wife isn't quite ready to watch everything I might do during solo sex. (Okay, serious TMI here, sorry!)
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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I will reply to your question,but you WONT like my answer and I damn sure bet others wont like my answer,and thats very simple-boys are more precious than girls.Personally I would duke it out with GOD himself to nurture and protect my son.But I dont have one.I do know that he would be the most important person in my life,even above my wife. I do hear all you guys telling this tortured soul to SAVE his marrage and all that. My question in all this is what about the boy? He is the most important person here! Whats best for him? Id rather burn in hell than allow that wife to corrupt that boys soul and I dont hear you goodie goodies debating that point! robert bryce
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