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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In a previous post Tim has made a plea for aid of some small sort to help someone convicted of a crime in her country.
Now I am not looking for the right or wrong of her treatment in her country. This is not about an individual. It was the over all concept of his post that brought this to mind.
What I am wondering is, why do we as outsiders continually insist on bringing our values to other cultures?
What makes us so right and them so wrong?
Why do we not see fit to live by the apparent standards we set for the rest of the world?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I take your point totally.
In answering it, I think we have the right to petition as individuals. I also think that those who hold other views have the right to petition.
We also have the right to stand by and either watch or not.
I see every reason to petition when we perceive unfairness, whether cultural or individual. I also respect the rights of others not to.
That has not answered your question per se, but is the closest I can get to it right now
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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what gives us the right to judge others by our (imperfect) set of standards???
My question asked nothing about petitions. It refered to the concept of foisting our beliefs on other cultures.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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If you'll pardon the pun.
We set values all the time and at several levels; for ourselves, our families, our communities, and our countries. Why not internationally as well? Should value systems be confined to small groups or can they be applied to the world as a whole?
I believe that to a limited extent, values can and should be imposed worldwide. It is a matter of how to do so while allowing individual countries to govern themselves that is of concern. Each country is a part of an international community and every community (regardless of size) must set its own standards if it is to survive. Individual members of a community should have the right to suggest or propose changes in those standards, but not the right to impose them.
A petition is one way to suggest or propose, but not impose. Other methods may include boycotts or tariffs. These are actions that individual countries can take within their own borders to protest the actions of another country.
If the world sees that a particular country to be in violation of the standards that are set, the world should have the authority to take action. If one country believes that another is in violation, it should not have the right to act upon that that other country by itself.
Individual countries should be permitted to govern themselves while remianing a part of a larger community. Thus a petition becomes a way for individuals within the community to speak out against perceived violations without interfering with the country's right to govern itself.
I see nothing wrong with taking action within my community to make my feelings known. I do see a problem with trying to impose my beliefs upon others. A petition suggesting to someone that they are wrong would be ok, an invasion to stop them from carrying out their beliefs would not.
Just my opinion.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think others need to answer, because I am close to the original post. I would say that asking and bringing pressure to bear is different from foisting. I do not see that I have a right to foist (which I view as "insist"), but I do feel I have aright to persuade.
Over to the floor.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am refering to groups and/or societies and how they seem to, with their zealousness, parade into regions unknown and profess to the indigenous peoples that they are now saved.
Individuals have always been at the forfront of voicing civil injustices. This is an important part of the human expaeience.
What I am asking is why does one mans justice, religon, politics, or class structure take precidence over the varient views of another man from another part of the world, living in a society just as perminant and established as the first mans albeit different.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Religion and cultural values, usually but not always "White Man's Christianity", have been the causes of more strife, hurt and pain than any other single thing in the world.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I see it more as trying to stop the suffering of another than 'foisting one's values' on another culture. Is it right to allow the suffering of another person or creature to occur?
Whether we believe in another's culture or not, I see it only as trying to alleviate torture.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Others can argue similar points against all major religions, for example. It does depend on the place you stand 
One could also look at sectarian issues within cultures and religions. Is it right, for exapmple, that in a challenging plave like Northern Ireland Roman Catholics and Protestants each appear to want to force their sectarian brand down the other side's throat and down the throat of the community at learge? And how can they do this when the underlying religion abhors violence?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What about christian missionaries that choose to invade a society?
This is by no means "torture".
Yet, it is intrusive. I call that foisting ones ideald on another.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am asking a general question reguarding western mores and values being imposed on other societies.
I am asking about a general concept. Not specific instances.
If I were to place as fine a point on the issue I would have just responded to your plea for help.
But I suspected that my doing that would have just kicked the hornets nest once again.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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hey ya marc--this is your yank friend suggesting you stuff a stocking in your mouth.Your negative vibes are causing upset. Now I could be wrong (yanks never are) but I think many are sick of your sour grapes,so heres a little sugar if you may.After I filter it thru my kidneys of course. rob
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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good post e.........lets hope that the religious hydra does not rear its ugly heads in America as in other countrys.It would seem that most of the draconic laws are religion based. rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I moved from specific to general. The original is neither here nor there in this thread I thinnk.
Oddly it is not just western mores. I live in a nation where Muslim mores are being put forward strongly among others.
Our Sikh policemen get special helments to wear becuase of their religion and may ride motorculces with turbans instead od crash helments.
Our Jewish friends may erect some sort of religious symbolic fence around their area which allows them certain internal privileges within their faith. Thsi also surrounds non Jewish people.
We have many examples of other cultures seekihg to influence out own. Wherever "ours" is and of whatever religion or cultural background. And coming from one of the world's "great colonising nations" the UK is probably more guilty than most of foisting its morality on others.
I think this is general enough, you know.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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rbryce
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Likes it here |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 216
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Where do you think we westerners got our ideas and standards from Marc?--the east..Its just that we westerners have evolved a bit more than the east.Although I must say that the death penalty in the US needs to be dampened. As a victim of intoloranse and draconic treatment,I am quite surprised on your comments Marc. rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Stoning a person isn't torture? Interesting.
How about demeaning a person simply because they are female?
Removing them from their child? Forcing a child to grow up without a parent?
How about YOU think?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think he means that this thread should be divorced from that about the Nigerian lady
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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You were not asked to vacate,as no one can say that.Just cut the sour grapes.When you sent me that e-mail,your star really shined in my books.Be assured that you have my deepest respect and affection.That IS unconditional.Your friend rob.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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So far I have never, I think, asked anyone either to go or stay. That's how I want it. That people feel accepted and loved.
Somehow something kicked your cat over this.
Rob seems to be able to read deep inside some things, and spotted something, maybe? I dunno. I didn't spot anything except I failed to answer your question. No biggy.
The question is valid. I'm happy to think about removing some individual answers if they are genuinely hurtful. No promises, just deep thought.
What's wrong, Marc? Something is. Coz this Marc is not the one whose home I stayed in 15 or so months ago. OK, some things needed to go I guess, but some of the things that have arrived are so "not you".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It doesn't matter....
I tried to make my question as beneign as possible. I even disclamed any attachment to that previous thread about that Nigerian Woman.
But it seems that I am still in the forfront of contraversy.
I just can't deal with it any more. I can not make my way through life walking on egg shells as it were.
When I see somethig that truly, deeply bothers me I am chastized for voicing any opinion on the matter to the point of vile name calling.
When I ask a legitimate question I recieve the same hardy welcome and walk away feeling quite the fool for bothering to ask at all.
You all call this a "place of safety".... Well now it is I that doesn't feel safe here any more....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The question was valid. The answers, even if missing the point, were valid. One reaction was more "direct" than was required. I know you and he actually get on ok by email, so I imagine that you and he will sort out together.
I am struggling to see why it is unsafe, though. It is just a brief spat, surely, between two grown men who can deal with that part "offline"?
You are as entitled as anyone to voice an opinion about a thing that bothers you. There are no egg shells to walk on over this.
For example, where I answered you re-positioned me at the question several times. You did it with patience, and I reached the point where I had either answered you or run out of ability to answer you. Others will, I hope, do the same. I see no eggshells.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Anyone living in a country is going to assume that their country (for the most part) is wonderful. Americans do this all the time and I hate it soo bad. They travel to other places and attempt to afflict their personal beliefs on other people. This is part of the reason why I hate missionaries soooo much! Who says which religion is rigth and which is wrong. I just think that through spreading one countries culture you arent helping the world, but merely destroying the uniqueness of everywhere else. I personally hate it and dont think it can be justified but thats just me...
Peace and Trees
~Andy
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I was not only refering to this thread.....
It doesn't matter..... Not any more.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Are only certain people's opinions permitted? If so, I apologize most strongly as a newby for bothering to read the forum or post my opinion.
If "Marc" feels that my posting upset him, then by all means I no longer will read here, post and will easily delete the link.
A place of safety for those who are constant posters I am sure, and I wouldn't want to be accused of chasing off a regular.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I HATE listenign to people argue and then tell each other they aren't going to post here anymore! Accept diffrences of opinions.
I am sorry all of you, but everyone alwasy wants you know equal treatment and respect for gay. Well as nice as that is I would like respect for diffrences of opinions. Everyone keeps saying they are going to leave because someone didn't agree with them.
Hell if we all agreed and had the same opnions and stuff do you know how boring you all would be. This place wouldnt be any fun. I mean jeez. The topic is kinda controversial everyone is bound to have diffrente opinions. be aware of that and don't let it bug you so bad. You guys all need to go back to high school and need to do debates with people again.
When your opinions clash over one topic once the debate is over you need to learn to forget about it. You can't let diffrences of opinion rule your lives! I love all of you now both stay cuz everyone had a valid point. And you all are super special
**HUGS** Now Kiss and make up
Peace and Trees
~Andy
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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Organized religion sends missionaries out to bend natives of other countries to their beliefs and way of life. The first things missionaries do are dress the natives like themselves, teach them songs that match their religion and even bring them into the fold as servants. The really sad part is that under all that, the native people still believe what they believe.
Whatever you believe in, be it God or Buddha or Nature or all the other names for faith,it is YOUR belief, not to be forced down anyone else's throat as though they were ignorant peoples.
The citizens of the country or land where these missionaries go to "spread the gospel" have the right to believe what they wish and show it in the way they wish.
I support what Marc is saying in that we should all walk in our own shoes and not try to make them fit anyone else. If someone asks me what I believe, I will tell them...other than that, it's not my place to shove my beliefs at another living soul. Why would I have the audacity to consider my thoughts any better than anyone else's?
I get so tired of each religion thinking they are the favored one. I have sat in church for years hearing that WE are the only favored ones going to heaven. Bullcrap! I want to believe that whatever God is, whatever force helps us to be good and kind and csring, is within ourselves, not in some church or some religious establishment.
BUT............there is a difference between bending another culture to your personal beliefs and closing your eyes to inhumane treatment of another human being. These are two totally different subjects. I agree with timmy...I agree with Marc.
Peace & Sunshine
smith
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Each perosn is here on their own responsibilty and for their own needs. They come and go as they wish and need. "regulars" and "newbies" (I hate that term) have the same status here. All are welcome and all may enjoy the place as long or as short as they wish and need
Sometimes I wish had that luxury myself, when people start getting the wrong end of the stick.
There is nothing I can do to prevent misunderstandings. I can simply hope people will have the courage of their convictions, especially when playing nicely.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No Message Body
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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and it is a cancer that is destroying this forum. As I see it,Timmy as the owner and creator of this site has every right to bring to light topics that may be of interest and concern to ALL! Simply put,to all brain dead viewers,the good man simply requested some signatures on a petition to redress a great travasty of human justice.Only a depraved monster would support the stoning of a woman for such a minor crime! Therefor as a decent human,Timmy asked those to sign a petition simply asking those athorities to reconsider such draconic measures. Now everybody got bent out of shape and castigated this good man for (interfering) in (other affaires). Now good people,where do WE draw the line as to exceptable human conduct.SHOULD YOU ALL INTERFERE WHEN YOU SEE YOUR NEIGHBOR BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF HIS KID for whatever reason,or should you all turn your backs and walk off-saying and doing nothing.Dear andy,peace and trees will not save that child.Tomorrow that child could take his life.PEACE AND TREES WILL NOT SAVE THAT CHILD! Dear friend Marc,Please do whatever is needed to get out of your depression,You seem to be a gentle man of talent.We need that talent.It is a gift but you seem to squander that by your acid here.To be able to rise above what has happened in your past and to be able to share that strength with others commands respect.You are truely awsome,yet very human.You have my respect. To the rest of you buttheads (hehe) that read and take things out of context,This should be a wake-up call to all.READ THOUROUGHLY ALL OF THE POST.There are no hidden codes,most make their words pretty plain and should not be taken out of context or twisted.All that was asked was that those who wished,sign a petition to stop this sensless killing.WHATS WRONG WITH THAT! rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I want the foul language and foul name calling to cease.
But it will not...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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As I have read ALL the posts on this thread,I do not see any instance of any foul language or any name calling period! Timmy would have had a fit if that were so.The truth is that you got thumped a small TINY bit with your sour grapes attitude.No one and I repeat-no one has called you any names.I AM NOT A SHRINK NOR DO I PRETEND TO BE ONE.I personally have suffered from clinical depression and am aware of the symptoms.This could be the case here and I mean no offense.GET HELP.There is something very wrong here and it is destroying you.Not one of us wants to see that happen to you...YOU ARE LOVED AND RESPECTED HERE,YOU HAVE EARNED THAT!---Some small proof is the series of posts that you have made over the past 5 months.I have print-outs of them all.They ALL show a pattern of lashing out over trivia or other matters that should be taken with a grain of salt. Please do as I did,and it took quite some time to do.Please go back 4 or more months and print up your posts including the responses.Please also consider the lapse concerning your stories.I pray that you will be honest with you.Lashing out at others is self-destructive actions,They can harm or kill. rob TIMMY YOU CAN DELETE THIS POST IF YOU FEEL IT IS NOT IN GOOD TASTE
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I was asked to get some sugar after it was filtered through a bladder.
To me this is being told to drink piss!!!!!!!
To me this is most foul and reprehensible!!!!!!!
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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You take things too seriously.but I will say that I am sorry and I mean that with all my heart.I can tell that you are hurting and I offer my friendship.please just dont let some of my barbs bunch up your panties.I mean well.You have my e-mail addy,lets talk.That is if you can put up with my wicked sense of humor.Honestly I do care about you Marc and I do want to be friends.Timmy can tell you the value of friendship.The man helped save my life.Showing me doors that could and would open if I wanted them to.See-most of my life I never was able to cry.Little did I realise that those repressed emotions were destroying what little time was given to me.I had cancer.Bone cancer of the right leg.The doctors all felt that the cancer would spread to my upper body.To make a long story short,I managed to beat the big C,but I would need braces and a wheel chair always.buying this puter was the best thing that ever happened.I know that fiction stories can be addictive,but such stories opened a whole new world for me.They taught me to cry. Enough about me.I hope you are well and in a good place. rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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I would have to agree with you. I know this is a "place of safety" but i know from experience that behind the scenes you can get some nasty mail. It doesnt feel good sometimes. I like to come here but i found keeping post limited are the best choice.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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me too.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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] 
A Place of Safety
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Re: A question...please blow 
Re: Good question Marc 
You are loved Marc 
let me know if i missed the point but.... 
NOONE IS LEAVING!!!! 
Kanga ! Marc ! Andy ! 
I love you Timmy... No hard feelings ok 
Re: I don't want everyone to agree with me........... 
Re: In a previous reply there was a remark in which......... 
