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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Today, during our after-lunch walk at work, I finished coming out to my best friend (since we were about 16) who I started talking to yesterday.
I actually attempted to "explain" Lance. Well, those of you who know him a bit know that "explaination" is impossible, but it was interesting trying! I'm not a huge fan of his board ( http://www.voy.com/12478/ ) because I'm not very political and often have different view, but I really do admire him and those "kids" and the impact the are having on society. A medium fan, I guess. Umm, sorry for the tangent - not nearly enough sleep last night - but that was the segue.
I think I owe my friend some more explaination, since I DID try to snuggle him during sleepovers when we were younger. But, that's all I wanted to do - I think I was just lonely and wanted to hold my friend. I also need to explain more about my relationship with my wife so he doesn't worry. He also just found out this week he will be a papa after trying for 14 years!
He may have figured "it" out before I did - wouldn't surprise me at all. I hadn't really said too much today, when he says, "So, you're considering coming out?" without missing a beat. He is a true friend, and this is a huge relief - I felt like I really needed to be honest with him. He remembers stuff from our teen years I had completely forgotten, like when I convinced him to go to a costume party as a transvestite, after I explained it, and he did. Also, a comment like "What if I don't like her," I made before a double-date.
For my next "feat" - I really need to figure out when to talk to my boys, who are 10 and 12. On the one hand, my sexuality is really all in my head, not my "lifestyle" (I truly hate that word) but it is difficult enough to explain without the fact that I'm gay - not bi - yet have every intention to be the best husband (to my wife) that I can be.
So, in a way, one could say it isn't relevant. On the other hand, I think it's important that we be honest and trust each other. In the unlikely event that something happens to my wife, it will probably become relevant. I want them to also understand that "gay" is not simply a stereotype, not something to call the kids at school who are more interesting than the "normal" kids. I want them to be good friends when they discover one of their friends is not "typical."
Part of me wants to wait until they discover their own sexuality at least a bit, part of me knows it will be harder for each of us the longer I wait, yet it will be easier to actually explain feelings of attraction if they have had that experience themselves.
But, my wife would be happy if I never discussed it with them until/unless it becomes personally relevant to them. Yet, if she can't hold her tongue around the house (just silly comments, which I do like because they mean she is becoming more comfortable) - they WILL start asking questions. Also, two of her friends know, so eventually it's bound to slip out.
So, when should I tell them?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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10/12 is old enough to know that "Some boys find they are attracted to girls and others to boys. If you come home with a boyfriend or a girlfriend will will love you just the same. And love them too." It is not old enough to know that your dad is unstr8.
Leave that until they are past the giggle stage. One dya it will either feel "necessary" or simply "right", potentially when they are about 15 and able to understand the emotional side.
Mind you I may the only one here who has told his own son!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Glad to know things went well with your friend, I'm sure your explanations should cover most things, funny thing is that some people I tell and then get into explanations and they already understand and get annoying with me for trying to justify it, heh, only tell as much as is required to set his mind at rest, no need to go for overkill.
As for your kids. Now, from one point of view I could say it isn't relevant, you love your wife, you'll stay with her and if anything does happen to her you'll simply find another person there is nothing earth shattering about it, yet, society has forced being gay to be such a big issue. I say instead of telling your boys you are gay, tell them that love crosses the boundaries of gender and that they and you both are allowed to be attracted to anyone they wish. If you want, just say that sometimes you find males attractive, but that just like any married man who loves their spouse, you don't intend on acting on that attraction. Teach them to be open minded and allow them to be attracted to anyone they feel attracted to, don't say "some boys are attracted to boys and some boys are attracted to girls", that is to restricting, it only gives them the option of being straight, gay or even bi, instead try to teach them that they may be attracted to anyone, and that if they love that person, that gender is irrelevant...
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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tim...of usa
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Likes it here |
Location: buffalo, new york...USA
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 266
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well seesm to me you dont have to tell your kids if your wife is making comments and such soon enough your boys are going to catch on and start asking questions....kids are not half as clueless as we hope them to be some times.
as for lifestyle or other lables.....well your a man who happenes to be homosexual and a ture man at that. in my little tiny opinion it takes a true man to set aside his wants and stick with his family and no matter what be the best dad and husband he can be....mega respect to you my friend. gay str8 Bi none of that matter when it comes to you and your family, i know a lot of other men that could take a few lessons from you on what it means to be a dad.
peace
love
hugs
and my respect
tim...of USA
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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unless oine gets really ocmplex, in general a young perosn becomeing sexually aware really only needs to understand the spectrum of gay/bi/str8, I think. I mean this in all seriousness when I say i woudl have found it hard to accept a non human creature as the love of my son's life. I do NOT want this thread to descend into the depths of bad humour now. I mean the thought with seriousness
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Agreed. I think Saben meant there is no need to use phrasing which would limit a person - catagorize or label them.
Thanks for the great thoughts - it really helps to hear a variety of opinions and the rationale behind them - I do appreciate it!
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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My opinion......Just teach them that love comes in alot of different packages and everyone has the right to pick the package that they want. If they believe this and trust you, then when they start picking up the vibes around the house, they'll know and it won't be an issue.
You want to tell them about you, that's understandable, but you need to know what they've been taught at school (by peers, by tv and the news. I don't know how open your family is but there is a movie called 'The Cure' PG-13 about a boy with HIV and how he finds a friend and together they live his life. It would start them talking and maybe let you know how they feel about people with differences. Just an idea but it would be good to find out what they've learned so far about tolerance and openmindedness.
You're a good dad,Trevor 
smith
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You ARE a good Dad, man!
My two cents worth is not to tell them explicitly yet, not for a few more years.
But DO keep on with the open-mindedness and tolerance messages, and when they're ready, they'll perhaps ask you the right questions in a more natural manner.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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This isn't the first time smith has recommeneded one of my all-time favorite movies, "The Cure", on this forum, and so this isn't the first time that I find myself seconding that recommendation (while you "veterans" of this board may recall that other occasion, this may be the first a lot of you are hearing about it).
As to the question of "age appropriateness" for children in the viewing of this film, here's a simple guideline: the protagonists are two 11 year old boys, faced with a situation far too many kids their age (and even younger) are confronted with in real life; so it certainly can be viewed by children who are at least that old (besides, it tells such a heart-breaking but ultimately most beautiful story that children need to hear and learn from). And yes, be sure to have a big box of tissues handy, especially for the scene in the tent!
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Thanks, I will check it out!
I've gotten some great advice on this, all leading me to do what in my heart I know is best: Consider the kid's needs ahead of my own needs. For now, we're starting to talk about bigotry, name-calling, sterotypes, acceptance, friendship and such. I realized last night that we'd never specifically sat down and discussed these. I made it clear that I will not tolerate name-calling, for example, that we all need to be accepted and befriended, and that this is important to me.
Thankfully I think we've set a decent example, though, and there are, thank God, quite a variety of races and shapes, at least, in the kids' lives to use as examples. Most of our friends are also different religions, too, so it isn't purly theoretical/academic. I do think there is also a huge "WWJD" tie-in here, regarding hatred, friendship, and support.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure these topics are ever discussed at school - I'll have to ask about that!
Thanks, all, for your input and getting me really thinking. I have been wrapped-up in myself a bit too much lately.
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Hiya, Trevor!
I am not a parent; and so, since I have no experience in that area (practical or otherwise), I really have no right to offer any unsolicited advice on parenting to anybody who does. Having said that, though, I wonder if I might share a thought or two that came to mind while reading this discussion.
As some here already know, I'm involved with a non-commercial classical music radio station in my area. Since it is "non-commercial", the station relies on contributions from listeners for a good 75% of its funding; so, to that end, we have three 10-day-long on-air fund-raisers during the course of the year when we ask listeners to phone in pledges of support. During last autumn's fund raiser, we got a call from a woman who told us she has the station on in her home all the time (even very quietly during the night), because she wants to introduce her 18 month old child to as many beautiful things as possible from as early an age as possible. In acknowledging her phone call and pledge on the air, I mentioned what she had said, and ventured the opinion that she was doing exactly the right thing by her child. In a way, I was speaking from experience. At age 4, I was probably the world's youngest "teeny-bopper" (this was circa 1960, the hey-day of such musical luminaries as Chubby Checker and Bobby Rydell). It was about this time that a bachelor uncle of mine moved in with us, bringing with him his then-state-of-the-art stereo equipment and reel-to-reel tapes (mostly of classical music, but of many other different kinds of music as well). I floored him one day when I asked him to show me how to run the equipment so I could listen to music when he wasn't home. He did so (not without more than just a little trepidation, which was to be expected!); and so began my earliest musical appreciation education.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's never too soon to introduce a child to beauty (goodness knows there are parents who pass along the ugliness of their fear-based bigotry and hatred onto their children practically from the moment they emerge from the womb). In my case, at age 4, no one (thankfully!) had yet attempted to indoctrinate me with the popular notion that classical music is only for the "long-hair", the "fruity" or the "artsy-fartsy"; to me, it was all music, be it Beethoven or the Beatles, and I feel most fortunate to have been allowed to grow up with those notions intact (so in a way this may also fall in with that discussion about the importance of holding on to the beautiful things of one's childhood).
I hope I wasn't talking out of turn too much here.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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I'll think on this. I hadn't considered helping them appreciate or recognize beauty per se. What little ugliness they've seen in their lives so far is mostly from their peers, I think, and we have been discussing that. My job has been a rather easy one so far.
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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Are hatred, friendship and support discussed at school? Oh, yeah.......Who do we hate today? You can't be my friend because you're different! Support you? You've gotta be kidding and have everybody hate me too?
Do the teachers try? Yes, some of them but kid's values and awareness levels are taught at home and on the street. You have to do exactly what you're doing, Trevor. Talk to them.
When the WWJD first came out, the CYG (Christian Youth Group) at my school went around handing out those bracelets and telling us to pray and think hard before we made any decisions. That, of course, was a disaster. But see, the problem with that is that if you haven't been taught how to be tolerant or how to be friends with everyone or, like me, didn't step back and see the ridiculousness of what you were being taught, then thinking hard will just give you a headache. The bracelets became a joke and it turned into 'What Would smith Do?"
Kids want to be exactly what the norm is.....to break out of that "norm", they have see that no group of people is any better or worse than any other; that there are bad people in any group and there are beautiful people. They have to SEE grownups and other kids they respect showing respect for gay people, poor people, smart people, handicapped people, etc....Not just hear it, but actually see it. Then it sinks in.
I actually got spit on once by a kid in 3rd grade just because I passed a test and he didn't. When I tried not to cry and asked, "WTF?" his only reply was..."Dumb Brain",which we know is kind of an oxymoron.
There are derogatory names for every group of people and around here, I hear them all. Why do people do that? Are they so afraid of someone other than themselves? To laugh when someone in a wheelchair can't open a door....to make jokes about a kid cause he only has one shirt....to call a kid faggot cause he's quiet and shy and reads alot....
Sorry.........this subject makes me really cranky. Just do what you're doing, Trevor. Love them and let them see you caring about others. They will learn from you.
smith
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hiya Trevor 
Re: Hiya Trevor 
helping..... 
what is WWJD? Did I miss it? 
