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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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Hi everyone:
I thought it might be a good idea if I made a contribution to the
discussion here. I'm a bit nervous about doing this, bacause after
all, it isn't my site, and nor am I one of the regulars here; and I'm
not familiar with your conventions or the way you work. But I thought
perhaps I could give you folks something to chew on, at least.
Tim asked me if he could host the story. I was flattered, because
it's a notable site and there's a lot of good stuff there. I was also
rather surprised, and asked Tim to be sure he really wanted to do
this, because I anticipated that some people wouldn't like it, and he
might catch some flack, flack of the kind I'm already familiar with,
you may be sure. Clearly I didn't know my man  (I suppose I still
don't very well, but I'm learning And sure enough, it's happened,
although it's a tribute to you that it's a pretty well-mannered
discussion compared to some I've met
I still don't want to express a strong opinion about whether the story
should be on his site. Partly this is because of what I said above:
I'm not a regular there. More importantly it's because it's Tim's
site; he's put it together to address certain issues, to plough a
number of furrows, and some of them are important to him and to other
people and to the world at large. He has a variety of perspectives,
some of them quite longterm and distant ones. I'm reluctant to
second-guess him, and I'm prepared to take him on trust, to be frank,
as he works these things out.
However, I would like to talk a bit about the story. I suppose in
some ways this isn't directly relevant to the discussion that you've
been having here. But, well, Tim and David (in the story) are dear to
me; if you've written a story for yourself you'll understand, and I
feel a need to speak for them. How (or if) you apply what I say to
the point of your discussion is up to you, I guess.
Is it legitimate to write a story about a relationship between an
adult and a young teenager, showing it in a positive light? Because,
as I said in the notes at the end of the story, such relationships
cannot be condoned. I actually believe that. They can't be condoned,
because they're dangerous to the teenager. That's the only reason.
Not because *in themselves* they make people feel queasy, or because
*in itself* the sex is wrong, but because they usually cause harm. But
that doesn't mean that they *always* cause harm; it's possible to
think of cases when they don't. We rightly have laws prohibiting
people from putting kids in the front passenger seats of cars, because
it can harm them. But that doesn't mean it will always. It is
possible to imagine situations in which an adult-teen relationship is
not harmful, and that is what the story tries to do.
In my opinion, that is legitimate. I wouldn't write a story showing
in a positive light a child being harmed. That would be horrible.
The story I have written is a love story. It's deliberately a love
story on the edge, a story which aims to show love in an edgy
situation, but a genuine love. It's edgy because of the age
difference, and because of the SM and its dominant/submissive
character. That's intentional. The story was originally aimed
exactly to counter the host of stories around (not in this neck of the
woods, but elsewhere) depicting positively things which are
utterly abusive and destructive, events filled with torment and hate
and fear, awful stories.
Someone said they couldn't believe that love can result from
intentionally induced physical pain. But that isn't what the story
depicts. It shows (or tries to show, I'm not claiming Great Writer
status here love which *expresses itself* partly through sexual
acts, of which SM practices are some. The SM is not the love, nor does
it cause the love; it expresses the love. And yes, like any kind of
sex, it has the potential for intimacy and for glory. That may be
hard for people to understand if they aren't wired that way, but it's
the truth. There are people out there who want that sort of thing,
including young people. When I was a teenager, they included me. In
the story it's Tim (the boy) I identify with, not David, even though
David tells the story. If I had had the chance when I was a teenager,
I'd have been Tim like a shot.
The other thing the story is about is power. It shows a teenager who
is profoundly submissive in character, as I was, and how once again he
finds a relationship which accommodates that in a loving way. It
shows how such a relationship does not mean that the submissive has to
become a nothing, a cipher, as so many of the awful stories I
mentioned above show. Because Tim is not a cipher; he's a vigorous
do-er who knows what he wants, who can defend himself when attacked,
who understands and manipulates people. He doesn't want to be
destroyed or broken, but to be steered, and that's what David offers
him. But the brake is *always* in Tim's hand. The story is about how
they work this out.
The story offers an ideal, of course. I don't apologise for that, and
indeed Tim's site (our host's site, I mean) is full of idealised
stories, and it's none the worse for that. I don't know what the
story would say to a submissive teenager reading it; the people here
have far more experience in that sort of thing than I do. I know what
I *hope* it would say, namely: Do not accept anything less than this;
this is what you are worth.
And to a young dominant: This, and no less, is what is expected of
you.
SM can be dangerous. There are abusive personalities, deadly
personalities around. (There are also many admirable and caring ones,
people who have really *thought* about the ethics of what they do.)
But if experience tells us anything it's that some kids will not be
put off by any danger once the hormones are buzzing. And some kids
want this stuff. If my story shows the way it *should* be, and raises
alarms when *isn't*, I won't be too disappointed.
I guess that's it. Over to you...
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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I think Story of Tim is one of the most interesting and complex pieces of fiction I have read on the internet. It is at times troubling and very thought provoking. Those are things good fiction should be. It is I think a story for adults. No one has reached any consensus on the issue of minors and access to adult material on the internet.
This is Tim's site. I think he has the right to decide what he wants to present here. I applaude his courage in sticking to his principles.
Richard
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Thank you, Jack, for your frank and honest expression of your views. I respect everything you say, and I respect the skill with which you told your story. For the sake of those for whom the penny has not yet dropped, the story worries me because I appreciate and feel the allure of the world it portrays, and it frightens me. I don't see the attraction in feeling pain, or in inflicting pain, but I do see the potential for such attraction. The story has never been out of my mind since I read it for the first time.
I know there are kids out there who need - and I mean NEED - S/M. They are a minority. They are entiltled to support; I would argue that they must HAVE support, and that support would include access to stories like this. In this context there are too few such positive stories. But I would also argue - very strongly - that a minority should not necessarily be catered for on a 'majority' site.
I think I've used this allegory before, though the figures may have changed. Near my home, a footbridge was built across a fairly major road. It was built to cater for the disabled; from both sides the access is by long, spiral ramps, and there is no alternative stepped access. I have never seen a disabled person use the bridge, and the construction deters all but the most determined non-disabled user. The bridge opened around five years ago. Since then, there have been two serious injuries and one death on the road beneath it. All were young teens.
The moral is obvious. Minorities must be catered for, but never at the expense of the majority.
I would not feel unduly uncomfortable if Tim were to provide a link to the story from his site - especially if that link were to be accessed from a page designed to help those predisposed to the world of S/M. What I cannot accept is the presentation of the story in the mainstream body of the site, where it may attract those with no such predisposition to S/M - as, at one stage in my life, it would have attracted me.
If the story stays where it is, then I suspect that I will eventually be obliged to go, because this will no longer be a place of safety. But that is no reflection upon the literary skill, or upon the sexual orientation of Jack Rowan. I have no basis upon which to criticise him, and there is much for which I admire him.
Cossie XLIV
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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In fact no real difference at all between an HTML statement that provides a hyperlink to a page ON a website to a apge OFF the website.
HTML is designed to make the physical location of a page an irrelevance.
It is thus possible to argue that the entire world wide web is one single web site, albeit hosted on multiple servers, or multiple web sites hosted upon multiple servers. In short one can argyue what one wishes.
In providing the location of the story plus a very serious warning about the content of the story I have done more to protect anyone in need of protection that simply providing a link to (say) the Nifty Archive.
I could provide links to the story on Nifty in sucyh a way that you would never realise that you had left my own site. I could do it in frames so that Nifty's site is presented as my own, and so that you would never see the URL of the Nifty page that was called up.
I feel that there are two issues being heartily confused here.
- That the story should have been published at all, anywhere
- That the story is accessible from or on my own website (I have already explained that there is no fifferecne between a clever link or a physical location>
I can, of course, chnage the title of the messageboard. "A place of mad, total, scary danger". However, what I think you have all who criticise its title have failed to notice is that you can express your opinions here in safety, always providing good manners are used in expressing them. That has always been my meaning.
That a serious and worthwhile debate can be held here about the virtues and dangers of BDSM practices makes it very different from some other places where raised voices and flying fists are the norm. That discussion can be held about the true danger to participants in scenes such as Jack portrays in his tale is, surely, a wonderful thing?
We have had raised voices. As the receiver of them I have a valid claim to say "these are intolerant, even abusive", and could, if I chose, declare them outside my own rules and delete them. But, since I am the one with that power, I choose to accept the intolerance and let it stand, at least until it becomes seriously abusive, when I will take necessary action to make deletions.
One of you asked in another thread that I anonymise the emails that have spoken of a positive benefit, and post them here. He suggested I was being (I forget the words) devious (I think that will do and doubtless he will correct me if I am incorrect) in stating this and providing no evidence.
If I do what he asks, then I break a different trust. By implication those emails are private. I cannot anonymise them. I have looked at the task and I cannot do it. The salinet facts are sufficient for the writer to identify himself or herself, and thsi to feel that trust has been broken.
I could make them up, of course. You would not know the difference. But I would be lying to you and to myself, and I will not do it.
What I can tell you about is something over twelve months ago that started me on my consideration about hosting this story.
I met online a sweet young man who was a willing slave in a master/slave relationship, similar on the face of it to "David and Tim". I did not understand the nature of such a realtionshiop at the time. By pure coincidence I had been recommended to read "The Story of Tim". With some distaste I set to reading it.
My distaste did not dim as I read the story, but I began to understand the emotional needs of certain young men who had an overriding requirement both to be dominated and to experience pain up to but not past their limits. I dicovered a world I have no wish to enter, but one that, with care and trust and love could and did provide an environment for the expression of love through acts which were simply not those I wished to perform.
With my knew knowledge, very different knowledge form that provided in "torture" stories on Nifty, on ASSGM, on ANCGS, I was able to have a better conversation with my new young friend.
He was twelve years old.
He was slave to a man many years his senior.
This was a real and physical relationship, not an online one, and the twelve year old boy was theone who had initiated, searched for and required the relationship.
We discussed, he and I, the nature of his relationship. During our discussionns he started to understand that his "master" was not worthy of the role, since he lost control. On the final occasion he beat the boy (who was willing to be beaten) so hard that he coudl not sit down for over a week.
As many have said, such relationships can be dangerous.
We discussed the relationmship, and the boy ended it. He understood something he had not understood before: that his "master" had abused the trust placed in him and had lost control. [Jack has such a story that i will not be hosting.]
The boy chose a different form of relationship after that. he required two things: lover, and mentor, ideally in the same person, but if not, then as two people. One of his friends stepped forward as mentor. The mentor WILL punish him with love (he requires this) when he is naughty, but is not into BDSM and will never be his master.
He is free now from an abusive relationship. I oculd not have helped him without the knowledge that Jack's story had given me.
I have followed this young man's life, and know him now to be happy and well balanced. He is playful and yes, he is naughty. His mentor and I have dicussed much as well, and I am pleased that he has found someone who cares for him so well after his prior bad expereince
That is all I will reveal about that one incident. I will reveal nothing of the emails.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Jack I don't know if you remember me or not but I was one of the first people to respond to your story of Tim. As I told you and in the messagge board you know I am not into S/M or B/D but you know how much I love you story. Do not worry what others say, I have loved your story and I will continue to reread it as much I want. You have shown us ALL that love can exsest between two people in a differet type of community.
Trey
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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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Yes Trey - Hello! - I keep all my fanmail, except for the ones that Hotmail trashed and who I suppose think I'm a mean brute who doesn't answer email...
I'm not worried by anything anyone has said here. On the contrary everyone has been very nice. It's not to be expected that everyone should like my story. It's quite edgy, as I said, and people will bring to it their thoughts and feelings, and their experiences, and you have to respect all that. It's hard to write a story which deals with difficult topics, and yet which no one will find hurtful. But the hard thing is you can't stop, because there are things to be said.
Many of the stories on Nifty and elsewhere which have as a big topic the mistreatment of kids by their parents I find impossible to finish. And yet the importance of this topic can't be ignored. Similarly, closer to here, I still haven't been able to finish Tim's story 'The Misfit' - I just find it too painful, even though I know it was important to write it. But he managed to read two stories by me which he found really hard, so I shall try again
I know there are piles of stories glorying in the torture and degradation of people, especially kids, which I find it impossible to read, and impossible to respect as well. And I can understand that from some people's viewpoints, what I have written is scarcely to be distinguished from that sort of stuff. And yet I've been treated here with all politeness and respect. I'm very grateful for that.
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Re: Story of Tim (again) 
