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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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There have been some very interesting notions raised here about sexual orientations (gay/streight/bi) and the possibility of an SM orientation as an "intrinsic" aspect of a persons sexuality.
I am more familiar with the issues about sexual orientation. There is clearly no consensus about this in academic/scientific circles. Some people think it is genetically predetermined and others doubt that there is such a thing in any absolute sense.
I am inclined to see it as being in a sense similar to the notion of race. There is some sort of fuzzy biological reality there, but as people waste less time defending irrational prejudices the whole concept becomes increasingly irrelevant.
Role postures such as passive or domineering are pretty basic aspects of personalities. If they aren't intrinsic, they aren't easily changed. I am not sure how deterministic this would be in a choice to participate in a structured SM subculture, but I doubt that it is completely unrelated.
I am strongly inclined to think that these are very fundamental aspects of a person's personality/sexuality. It appears to me unlikely that they are going to be much influenced by the reading of one or two stories. I think that that view would find considerable support among psychological professionals.
Richard
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Interesting post, Richard!
I don't think I disagree fundamentally with much of what you say, but I'd like to make a couple of points.
First of all, the association between traits of character and sexual orientation and preference seems to me to be pretty random. It isn't always the meek who are attracted to sexual submission! I take the view that the bundle of genes which we inherit still allows us an immense capability to be moulded by experience.
Secondly, I don't accept your assumption that the psychological establishment would support the views in your final paragraph. There is ample evidence that character development (and this, I'd suggest, is especially true of the development of sexual preference) can be dramatically influenced by apparently trivial experiences.
Looking specifically at S/M, even if I accept that it requires some innate character trait, I suspect that many with that trait enjoy happy and fulfilling lives without conscious awareness of what lies within them. And if there is any sort of foundation in such a suspicion, I'd argue that exposure to a couple of powerful tales such as 'The Story of Tim' could well be enough to push the start button.
We have much to learn about how the human mind functions, and we do ourselves no favours by adopting a complacent approach.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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So much so that I am going to embed it one level down. Why? because it is possible to see it is at lacking in taste because of Justin's death. Yet knowing the little of him I know I think he would have wished us to discuss it.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Justin died as a result of a sexual practice gone wrong. His father asked that the reason for his death at 15 years old be given wide circulation in order to prevent as many other boys as possible from walking that road. Justin was practicing auto-erotic asphyxiation as a mechnism to attmept to create the ultimate orgasm.
I confess when I was 11 or 12 I did the same.
The question that Cossie raises about button pressing is ringing in my head here.
Does the provision of an explicit warning against a sexual practice, one that has finite and known dangers, one that can easily be fatal, espcially when practised alone itslef create a new danger of people who had never considered such a practice trying it out?
Is the hope here that for every boy it may entice in it frightens two away a sufficient hope?
I think we may feel at liberty to discuss this despite the awful news of Justin's death being so current. It is the very currency that leads me to believe that the topic is valid.
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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In my mind there two different issues here. The first is about the development of long enduring basic personality traits. The American Psychiatric Asso. has adopted a position statement that sexual orientation is not amenable to change once formed and that efforts to do so may well cause harm. That is what I was talking about. Reading stories does not make people gay or streight. I am not that knowledgable about the dynamics of SM.
The second issue is the danger of someone trying something for a thrill when they don't appreciate the dangers involved. That is a real danger. And, I think, a very different issue. Making information available in a publicly accessable mudium may be helpful to one person and harmful to another. I don't think there is a simple solution to the problem.
The situation of Justin is indeed sad and tragic. I remember years ago when I was a social worker in a mental institution seeing a young man who had done the same thing. He was saved from death but was left with severe brain damage.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and I hope it does provoke discussion. We owe that to Justy's memory. I've criticised your reaction elsewhere; you've gone some way to restoring my faith.
In my view, warnings which may inform an adult audience are likely to encourage rather than deter the average teen. And that's not patronising - most of us have, or had, insatiable curiosity at that age. That, I suppose, is what I've been trying to say in various ways throughout the past week. But this isn't a time for scoring Brownie points, it's a time for sorrow and deep thinking.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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No Message Body
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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brian
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 60
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honestly...i hate to post my opinion on this today after the message about Justin's death got out yesterday...but then...
it was said elsewhere that Justin was incredible mature for being 15 (i can't judge that, i never knew him)...but don't you think that a person of 15 does realize that it could kill him, does realize that stories show an ideal world mostly?
"story of tim" is the example at hand here...does that story in which David tells Tim all the time how it is dangerous to do such things and how he doesn't know whether he can do it...do you seriously think that that story encourages teenager to try those weird mastrubation things?
and then...we can even step away from stories...what about "Naked Lunch" by Borroughs? That book is filled with paedophilia, weird sex techniques and also auto-erotic aspyxation, but if i'm no mistaken you are able to purchase that book very much everywhere...without any kind of warning...
in my very personal opinion...you can't make stories responsible for the actions of people. Just as you can't make songs responsible. actually...i don't believe Justin did even read those stories...there are certainly other ways to find out about aea...if i'm not mistaken there was some huge scandal about the same thing in Britain at that college Prince William was on...and very nicely explained on teh news how it is done. also how dangerous it is, but then...it's only a warning and has the same effect as other warnings...
i have to put myself as an example here. yes, i do read those kind of stories, although i probably shouldn't do so considering my age...but then...i would never try those kind of things myself at this time of my life, because it would be simply foolish... actually you can read in the warnings of some stories things like, 'don't try this by yourself. it is life threatening.' And that's what it is...
the question is...how else do you want to handle such stories? If you put a warning there is the danger of some people trying it out themselves and dying in the process. No warning: a lot more people try that out and will die. lock away those stories...teenager will hear about it nevertheless...and they will try it out without any example, without any warning at all, just how they feel it should be... don't kid yourself...it's not like reading those stories is the only way of finding out about such practices...
i have honestly no idea how it should be handled...but no story can be made responsible for deaths of people...everybody who is in the age of discovering for example nifty on the net, is old and mature enough to know that stories are not reality and display a perfect world where Aids and death are far away if not a fundamental part of the story. so then...should usual gay stories (where mostly safer sex isn't practiced) be locked away because people over-read the warning of it being dangerous?
love,
brian
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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This gave information of the manner of his death. Does gioving sufficient information to others in such a warning encourage or discourage a practice?
I find this a two edged sword.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I want to stay at "simple" orientation. My counsellor tells me there is no such thing, but, for the moment, please let us assume the Kinsey scale of gay at one end and str8 at the other.
"Why am I gay?"
I was brought up heterosexual in an apparently normal 1950s family unit in similar conditions to those many other heterosexual boys were raised in. Homosexuality was not discussed at home, and when we talked about it in school (up to the age of 13) it was with total disgust for the concept and laughter about the practice.
I was neither comfortable nor uncomfortable with public nudity in changing rooms for (eg) swimming, and had seen both men and women naked. Both looked equally ridiculous. Niether were arousing. As a child I had seen other little boys and seen little girls naked. Neithewere arousing. Though I had played doctor like games with other boys, no girls were available of the right age group, and we none of us ever considered it. The other boys are not gay.
My juvenile (up to 13) sexual fantasies were with girls. It was simply because they were.
At 13 I discovered with total shock and horror that boys were the most wonderful most alluring, most beautiful creatures on the planet. Worse, I masturbated with a boy's image in my head, and I wanted HIM inside ME. Oh yes. I also wanted him to hurt me, but that is a side issue. And while I adored one boy I wanted many, many others. None of whom I ever touched nor told.
I was not nurtured to be like this. No-one at school ever assaulted me, no-one trained me to be like this. I simply am like this. My "nature" either revealed itself to me, or changed abruptly at puberty.
So, "Orientation" or "Destiny"?
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brian
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 60
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it depends on the person who receives it, without a doubt that warning will cost people's lives (because teens now will now try it out), but it will also save people's lives. and more lives as if it wasn't spoken...that's my opinion.
love,
brian
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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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I understand people's agony about this. Also I hear what Cossie said about teenagers doing things even though they're warned against them. The teenage years are a time when people want to take risks and do things by themselves, particularly things they've been warned against. I think it's probably in-built. If we didn't have that urge, we would stay dependent children forever.
But what can you do? You can't *not* tell kids that it's bad for them to inject heroin or drive a motorbike when drunk or have sex without a condom, can you? I don't think you can ask that of parents or other people whose task it is to look after kids. What are they to do? Just not discuss these things?
I suspect it's all to do with how the warnings are given, and in what context. If it's done simply and honestly and not in a censorious or dogmatic 'Now you just listen to me, kid' sort of way, I suspect it has more chance of being accepted.
But what do I know? I have no clear answers. But I suspect that without the necessary information kids *can't* keep themselves safe even if they want to.
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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Tim,
My personal intuitive sense is that I was "born gay". I guess that is similar to yours. However, I am not certain if that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
One question that occurs to me is do you and I or any two gay men fit into the same pigeon hole? Clearly we are different people from different backgrounds with different DNA. Being gay is not the totality of our lives. Does it necessarily come about by identical processes?
I don't know the answer to that question. However, that does not prevent it from being an interesting question.
Richard
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There is a lot of sense being expressed here.
First, on the efficacy of warnings and disclaimers at the head of stories. It's human nature: some will read them and accept them; some will read them and reject them; and some will simply reject them. It is therefore obvious that it is much better to give the warning (which will be read and heeded by at least some) than to not give the warning (which only serves to leave everybody vulnerable). As has already been pointed out, there are (unfortunately) more than enough places on the Web where one could (if one so desired) learn all about (say) auto-erotic asphyxiation (all, that is, except how dangerous it is). An allusion has also been made to all those thousands of stories on the Web which seem to take place in a world where AIDS and STDs are non-existent. In my experience, most of these stories come with headings and disclaimers which point that out and state in no uncertain terms that "safer sex" is definitely the way to go. Should those disclaimers not have been included? Or, taking this even further, should the whole Nifty Archive therefore be made to disappear completely from cyberspace?
Second, on whether the reading of an S/M story will automatically make the reader want to engage in S/M practices: I think it is safe to say that even if one is a "natural bottom", that doesn't necessarily make him want to be an S/M slave. Here again, to include a warning is clearly much more preferable than to not include one.
Yes, disclaimers and other such headings can be (and all too often are) easily overlooked and rejected; that, however, does not make them in any way superfluous.
And as far as orientation itself is concerned, I still believe you are what you are right from the start, and no amount of "nurture" is going to change that (I mean, REALLY change that). For example, before puberty, I thought it would just be inevitable that I would get married and have kids when I grew up; but at the same time I knew that I would want all my children to be sons (not that I ever thought of myself as being in any way incestuous really, it's just that even then at least part of me knew that I really wasn't attracted to girls). It was with the onset of puberty that I began to think about myself and what these thoughts and feelings meant; but clearly those thoughts and feelings were there all along.
A great deal of "cyberink" has been spilled on the subject of Tim's hosting "The Story of Tim" on his website. Much of this ink has been in the form of honest and civilized debate and discussion (which is certainly most healthy); but much of it has also been most vitriolic and hostile (which clearly helps no-one). They say time heals all wounds; and it is my sincere wish that this will go as well for those wounds inflicted by that vitriol and hostility.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Before judgement and summary execution is rendered....
You should at least make an effort to try and understand a persons motives for strongly presented opinions.
Just an idle thought...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I knew I had an attraction for guys at a very early age. I also knew it wasnt a fad or a phase of growth. I liked guys. Period.
I know there is no scientific proof but I have to believe that the phenonemon of gayness or being gay is naturally occuring predetermination in a persons essential makeup.
Granted there are the few out there that tend to be gay through a Pavlovian response to sone form of abuse recieved at a previous time in their lives. But the majority of gay people never had exploitive experiences to influence their behavior.
Just my opinion.....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I can´t give you no answer to that question, not really.
As far as I am concerned; I mostly not always had dreams about boys, that´s for sure. But I was never "outgoing" and had my first real sexual contact quite late.
If this had happened a bit earlier or under some other circumstances -remember my unanswered try - perhaps I´d be a "normal" gay man.
But it turned out the other way, and it´s not less normal. I am not gay nor am I a heterosexual man. Wether this is Orientation or Destiny is in fact a very interesting but nothing but an academical question. Even if there´d be an answer, it would mean no diffenrence for no-one. You are what you are - enjoy yourself!!!!!
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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Respect for other people's opinions is a two way street. It is entirely possible to clearly disagree with someone without subjecting them to personal abuse. Some of the messages that have been posted here are entirely beyond the limits of reasonablness. Sincerity of feeling is not sufficient justification for that.
Richard
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Just a short(ish!) response to some of the interesting points above.
VITRIOL AND HOSTILITY
This is NOT directed at anything recently posted on this board, and may well be irrelevant in these specific cases. I just take the view that the gay board community over-reacts to bad-tempered foot-stamping. Sometimes the offender is simply over-emotional, sometimes simply inadequate and - alas! - sometimes just a nasty piece of work. But I suggest that the best defence is always to react reasonably and avoid pious denouncement. In both of the first two scenarios there's a good chance of cooling the issue (and sometimes you even get an e-mail apology!); in the third you succeed in making the offender look stupid, which seems a pretty good result to me!
TO WARN OR NOT TO WARN?
I wouldn't wish anyone to think I had been campaigning against warnings per se. It is always better to warn, though when the warnings become as stereotyped as, for example, those preceding many Nifty stories, they have no real function. In any event, the reader at Nifty knows what he (or she) is looking for. My argument is that simply prefacing a story by a warning does not absolve the author/hoster of responsibility. My personal view (which, I accept, seems to be rejected by the majority) is simply that an S/M story is something a reader should need to look for on the top shelf; it should not be in the front row of the display rack. You can rubbish this view quite easily, but I do see a distinction, and to me it is valid.
NATURE OR NURTURE?
I go for nurture for a whole raft of reasons, mostly scientific, but in some cases purely logical. But by nurture I simply mean that I do not believe that gayness is defined at the moment of conception. I'm NOT suggesting that it involves any element of conscious choice. I certainly don't think that it needs to involve an external influence on the scale of sexual abuse, though such abuse can certainly influence orientation. It may be some trivial event buried deep in the subconscious, or it may be some vaguely-remembered excitement at the age of three or four. Most of us will never know, nor even necessarily want to know. In terms of effect, it might just as easily be genetic; I just don't see any convincing evidence that it is, and the alternative seems much more likely. On that basis, does it - in terms of our daily lives - really matter?
And I now I suggest we should move the discussion forward to cabbages, and kings; and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings ....
(Lewis Carroll almost certainly had paedophile tendencies, though he wasn't gay!)
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I suspect two non regular visitors would not agree though. Their right as is everyone's, of course.
There is only one set of messages I find deeply offensive, and that stays on public view.
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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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Ron said:
>A great deal of "cyberink" has been spilled on the subject
>of Tim's hosting "The Story of Tim" on his website. Much
> of this ink has been in the form of honest and civilized
>debate and discussion (which is certainly most healthy);
>but much of it has also been most vitriolic and hostile
>(which clearly helps no-one).
I don't think there's been much in the way of vitriol. I've said this before, but I really do mean it: the debate has been mostly polite and pretty constructive, compared to other net forums I know. One or two people have expressed themselves a bit, um, snappily about my story, but I'm really not offended. This is a brisk medium, and there's no harm in getting your point across briskly.
I think that if people take part in a debate where people's emotions are involved, they should expect that occasionally voices will be raised. It's not productive to be too sensitive to this.
Of course, I don't know what may be going on behind the scenes, but that's not the same thing.
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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There was a very interesting film released about 1984 that is about Alice Hargreeves in later life and her memories of The Rev. Charles Dotseson (sp?) aka Lewis G. Carrol. I can't remember the title and I can't find it in any movie DB. It has the word dream or dreamer in it.
The Rev Horatio Alger chased New York paper boys in between writing books. He was run out of town in Mass.
Richard
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Jack Rowan
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 16
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Charles Dodgson was his name. He never married, and had close friendships with a whole succession of young girls, who apparently really liked him. Each of them was gently dropped when she reached about age 12. He was an amatuer photographer and took lots of pictures of his friends, many of them nude. Despite all this, none of the parents objected and no one seemed to think it in the least odd, even though this was at the height of 19th century prudery; on the contrary, they seemed to admire him for his ability to relate to children.
His field was mathematics - he was lecturer at Christ Church college in Oxford. Alice Lidell was the daughter of the dean. There's a story of Queen Victoria reading the Alice books and asking for whatever else Mr Carroll has written - only to receive a pile of maths books...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Interesting case, isn't he!
The film was 'Dreamchild', a British arthouse film of 1985, directed by Gavin Miller from a screenplay by Dennis Potter, and starring Coral Browne. It attracted a great deal of critical acclaim, but not so many box-office dollars. Well worth buying if you find it on DVD, though!
Incidentally, Alice's surname as quoted in both postings above is correct; she was Alice Liddell when the story was written (and so far as I know she was never photographed nude, but several times partially-clothed; LC became bolder as he became older!) but her surname by marriage was Hargreaves, and that was the name used in the film.
LC had a tremendous facility for creating images of the ridiculous -
'"Won't you walk a little faster?" said the Whiting to the Snail; "There's a porpoise close behind me, and it's treading on my tail!"
I love it. No wonder Victorian kids did!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I was not being judgmental or summarily condemnatory (but if I came off sounding that way, may I offer my sincerest apologies, as that was certainly not my intent).
I may be talking out of turn here (in fact, I probably am), but I somehow get the feeling, Marc, that there was perhaps some incident in your past, the memory of which is causing you to react as passionately to this discussion as you have (a passion that it seems I have misinterpreted as vitriol and hostility). I would ask, though, that you keep in mind the fact that you are not alone, that there are others who have had similar incidents in their past; but not everybody is going to react the same way to a similar incident (if only due to the basic fact that they are different persons), and that would affect how they react to this discussion. With all respects, therefore, I would suggest that you not expect everybody to always be in complete agreement with you (I learned that lesson long ago in my arguments about gun control with a friend who worships the gun as if it were a holy icon).
I do have nothing but the utmost respect for your feelings, Marc, believe me I do. At the same time, I also have nothing but the utmost respect for Tim's feelings; and no matter how much I may have wished he had never posted that story, it is still not my place to demand that he remove it (nor to use that as a weapon against the continuation of our friendship). Life's just too short.
Again, just a thought....
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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Re: Can I be very basic here? 
