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I was asked a very pointed and upfront question the other day, by someone in my IRL who wanted to validate a point of his faith against recent court decisions, and I found myself completely chilled by my response. And as honest as I found myself being, I still keep seeing myself thinking it over and wondering if what I said was right, accurate or even plausible, or if I acted out of a cold, unyeilding anger.
Okay, I'll get to it. Somone at work asked me if I'd heard about the recent Supreme Court case (US) which overturned a Texan (and several other states as well) law making sodomy illegal. I said, quite plainly and with much enthusiasm "Well it's about damned time!" I got curious looks until I said, "Look, the police have much more important matters to deal with than what goes on between two consenting adults in their own home. Let's harrass the drug dealers, murderes, gangbangers, pushers, pimps and thieves in this country instead of law abiding, tax paying, honorable, loyal and friendly citizens."
And that's when it struck me. The person asking the question just looked at me and threw up his hands and said "But God says it's wrong! A man should not lie in sin with another man."
To which I replied. "God didn't say it. The bible says it, and unless someone wants to come down and tell me otherwise, God didn't pen that book. For all your biblical scholarly nature, my friend, I think you have overlooked two key points. One, God's law is not man's law. This case was something about man's law. And second, the bible has been used to prove and disprove so many things that it contradicts itself."
"The Bible is the absolute truth of God!" he thundered back.
"Then you do everything exactly as the bible says?"
"To the letter," he snapped angrilly.
"Then when was the last time you brought a goat into your place of worship and sacrificed it? Why do you celebrate your religious observances on the first day of God's week and not the sabbath the same as the Jews? Do you carry a spade into the desert, 400 paces from your tent before digging a hole to relieve yourself in?"
"Times have changed since then. We don't do that anymore."
"Then you aren't following your bible so perfectly? You just pick and choose what works best for you?"
He got up and walked out of the break room. Then he turned back and said, "God will punish the wicked, including them damned faggots one day."
"Last I heard," I said, calmly, "God loves us, died for our sins and has infinite patience, forgiveness and love. How can an act of love, even one you find discusting, be wrong to such a person, especially, as you yourself have told me in here many times, God made us as we are?"
Okay, so here's the question for the rest of you. Who was more wrong, me for heartlessly, and coldly tearing at his faith and beliefs, or him for damning whole groups of people on a misguided notion that plagues modern christianity in its many forms? Be honest, guys, I've thought a lot about this the last few days.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The answer is that both of you were.
Each attempted to score points instead of discussing and finding commonality.
Now there may have been precious little common ground, but even an inch is a good start.
Damned tempting to drown him, though. Very hard to resist it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Maybe timmy is right about both of you trying to make your points and not listening to eah other. But if he wasn't listening, then it's really difficult for you to do anything other than you did.
You both "KNOW" you're correct on these points.
Facts and faith rarely combine very well. You pointed out inconsistencies in his faith. Fair enough. Can you do it with concern for HIM in your heart and ditch some of the anger?
I'm not even sure that's entirely necessary, just thinking out loud here.
Gandhi was a very angry man. Yet he harnessed his anger positively.
But there were limits on even what Gandhi could do. He tried to get Hinduu and Muslim to live together in poeace, and he was gunned down for it.
What would you say or do differently looking back on it? Maybe that's the most important question to ask yourself.
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They need someone to hate so they can feel superior about themselves. Despiccable.
There's of course many rules in the bible that christians (or jews for that matter) choose to ignore for one reason or another, some of which you should be punished by death for violating, and the one these people still cling to is the anti-gay rule because it is easy to follow through on. An openly gay person stands out a lot more in a crowd than a person wearing cotton/polyester underwear.
If you get talking to your friend again, ask him, if he really believes the bible is the absolute truth, why does it say that the circumference of a circle divided by its diameter equals three, and that the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds, when clearly neither are true or even close to it.
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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all you did was fuel his fire. Believe me, he has "GOD" riding shotgun and there's NOTHING you can say that will change that.
I've learned to just not ever bring up politics or the fact that all people are created equal. I can't fight a forest fire with a teaspoon of water.
Sadly, your "friend" won't change, can't change. His strength lies in his beliefs.....without them, he would be lost. You are gay; he is a 'born to hate' loving Christian. The two don't mix well.
smith 
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Forget the argument. You can't win with someone like that. All you can do is make yourself upset, which it seems you have done. David pointed out that Ghandi was a very angry man, but channeled hiw anger. I'll point out that Jesus was also a very angry man who channeled his. He didn't seem to care who he upset when he spoke. He said what he needed to say. Of course he was crucified for it, so unless you want to be crucified, it's better not to speak out too loudly or too often.
But if you wish to continue:
Your friend contradicted himself in his own argument. "The Bible is the absolute truth of God!" "Times have changed since then. We don't do that anymore." Do absolute truths change? If they do, then why can't the "truth" about sodomy change? Perhaps "times" are changing again and now this is permissable.
Also you had a very good point in differentiating "man's law" from "God's law." "Man's law" does not need to coincide with "God's law" for God's law to remain valid. It sounds like your friend seems to think that if man changes his law, God cannot enforce His. That's one pretty weak God that he seems to believe in.
And as for God punishing the "damned faggots," well, I'd guess He'll be punshing the damned bigots and hate-mongers too.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Well, to be honest, I've kinda come to an understanding that things aren't how they appear. I wasn't so much upset that I had gotten all over his case about things, but just that I could do so without "feeling" anything. I did it all with the detatched, emotionless guile of a divorce attourney.
The thing is this: I know he's an idiot, easily led about. Seems to be a trend in this part of America. For those who understand the terms, he's a true, dyed in the wool, born and bred (inbred?) redneck. He even has a Confederate flag on his car, like a failed rebellion from 140 years ago still has proponents today!
So saying, there are few times that I've ever seen one of these types come to reason willingly. I mean, they even invented and supported a version of christianity that built their own amusement park! And they saw nothing wrong with this, yet they go nuts over a single gay gathering at Disney World (which was built by a man who was widely thought to be gay himself)! I still feel really ticked about all the people that these so-called men of God fleeced over the years. The little old ladies who gave their savings over to a pair of obvious image merchants.
Perhaps it was that kind of anger and the turmoil going on in the church I grew up in (and no longer feel is a valid avenue for my own faith) that fueled my response. Perhaps it was just that there seems to be too many bad beliefs and not enough good ideas in what passes for theology. Perhaps it was just that having escaped these malcontents and then returning here to help my parents out just makes me feel trapped in a culture (and I use that word loosely) that thinks NASCAR should be an Olympic sport, that considers hunting a necesary event on a national holiday, which finds it an obscenity to discourage gun racks and open beer containers in the cab of a truck.
Seems I got into a rant, hehehehe.
At any rate, Thanks for your responses. Gave me a few things to think about. Hopefully we all wont have such situations come up, but knowing the wonderful diversity and often times painfully sad depreciation of the human condition, dissention is bound to happen.
I wonder, how do others of us deal with such situations as they occur?
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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If we look to other men what will we find? Even the best, it seems to me are not perfect. Besides no matter how perfect, I do not want their revelation.
WOW this a hot one but some I think will always have a hard time seeing but what someone else tells them.
I just *sigh*, after all if there is some kind of accounting I, here again this my personal revelation, have been asked only to love them not to like them!
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Just a thought.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Wearing the inside out. 
I'm all for teasing self-righteous, holier-than-thou bigots. 
Re: Wearing the inside out. 
Re: Wearing the inside out. 
