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!Steve
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 4
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This post has been lying dormant inside me for a long while. Recent posts here have awakened the thought within me once again. I know it is way off topic, as it were, but I think we have here a group of articulate people who could perhaps contribute something to help me understand.
More people than ever before have forsaken religion - any religion. And even many of those who subscribe to a religious faith do so with much soul-searching. Whether we like it or not and whether we approve or not we are moving into an age in which the main religions (at least in the Western world, and probably further east too despite appearances) will cease to be the dominant factors informing the behaviour and criteria of 'the man in the street'.
The societies in which we live today show many signs that there is no common, widely agreed set of 'Does and Don'ts' which used to characterize organized religion. (For far too many people religious behaviour has already become just an habitual round of almost meaningless rites with no ethical content or - even worse - what many consider to be a warped ethical content.)
Human civilization cannot remain stable without generally agreed principles of what is required of the 'decent' person. What do you think are the essential qualities, values, behaviour-patterns that should be the content of the ethical (spiritual) heritage we pass on from this generation to the next?
Please respond to this question, and please don't consider at this stage the issue of probable success or failure. Just tell us what you think should be the values that inform our behaviour. If there is a good response to my request I shall take it a stage further later on. Oh, and also, don't be afraid to say something that someone else has already said: it will give us an idea of how widespread these views are.
Please do contribute to this survey. Thanks.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I dont really think its the religions,but the religious organizations that are at fault here along with the entrenched leaders that prey upon a gullible public...so-called moral values can be generated by any society--these are just simply guidelines in decent conduct and the individual being required to be responsible for their actions and or any consequences of same actions.Religion got dumped on us all simply because mankind could not explain why the sky is blue......rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
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I think one other reason for such discord in our society (and i think this encompasses many societies) is that our world is in a state of flux.A state of evolution if you will and that the organized clergy is ill prepaired for such modern change.These people that power our religions and churches seem not to have a clue about the various processes involved in this evolution and bury their heads into the sand hoping to drown out the winds of CHANGE...Lets face it,these church leaders wield a great deal of power and are reluctant to give up that power..Perhaps like the dinosour,the church is fearful of its own self-distruction..rob
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!Steve
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 4
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What you write, Rob, may well be right, but it veers the discussion away from what I asked for. Please, Rob (and everyone else), just write here a few values that you think are essential. If you want to discuss the whole idea or some aspect of it, please start a new thread. Thanks.
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(Note to the reader(s): I think most people here understand that what I say here are my own personal views, and is not intended to be seen as a personal attack on anyone. There is no need to feel insulted or slighted by what I have to say...  )
"Without religion there are no values!"
This is often purported to be the case, mostly by religious leaders, whom with horror in their quivering voices declare how society would fall apart unless people follow their god (or rather, follow their god's proxy on this earth, ie: them).
To me, religion is about nothing except power and control over the masses. Our gods were invented by us to explain how we, this planet and the universe it exists in came about. They were invented so we would not feel so small and helpless anymore, and to help us get over our fear of death. It is not very difficult to trace the origins of christianity to older religions from the same general geographical area for example, showing the bible is slightly less divine than purported.
The values often attributed to religion really have nothing to do with religion. There's nothing that says religious people are any more 'valuable' (lol) than non-religious people. One could argue the opposite tends to be the case, since non-religious people do not feel any hostility towards people with different values and/or religion fueled by some kind of holy scripture.
Look at Northern Ireland for example, I saw on the TV news a few years ago how protestant school children had to have police escort as they walked down a catholic street, since the housewives living on either side stood there and hurled abuse (and sometimes objects) at the children! They apparantly found foundation in their religion to behave in such a small-minded and despiccable way towards totally innocent kids.
Conflicts in many other parts of the globe can also be attributed to religion and overzealous practice of the same. I say overzealous, because there are of course many other people on this planet that are both religious and sensible. However, the reason they are sensible are not BECAUSE they are religious, even if they happen to have been taught their ethics and morale from a religious perspective, because those same ideals exist in non-religious people too.
Sensible people simply have sensible views, no matter if they are religious or not. One does not require the other.
Funny btw that you should bring this topic up almost at the same time I read this article: http://www.flash.net/~lbartley/au/issues/godtrust.htm
It's rather interesting I have to say...
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Steve, I think one of the larger issues under-lying a discussion of the merits of various sets of values is a whole larger area.
In the past, people depended (or were forced to depend upon) external authorities to tell them what to do and how to think. From parents to the State government, external authorities are used to provide benchmarks for what is acceptable.
The Church (whichever one is used as an example, they're pretty similar in the authority department) is a prime example of an external authority.
I think people e verywhere might be heading toward an era of thinking more for themselves independent of any external authority. I work very hard on myself and with others who want to internalize their own authority, so to speak.
One of the reasons I am drawn to Buddhism is that it doesn't pretend to have absolute authority. Your way toward enlightenment is as valid as my way, in fact, the Buddha tried to teach against just following the leader.
So...two values I highly prize are indepencence and personal responsibility for one's actions.
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!Steve
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 4
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No Message Body
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think they are encompassed in two fairies from "The Water Babies"
There is Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby, and her sterner colleague Mrs Bedonebyasyoudid who also dispenses good things.
It is really a simple set of values.
I am ignoring the religious element of the question, since I do not have a religion per se.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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!Steve
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 4
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Thanks, Tim. BTW, there is no religious element in the question: it is concerned with life-informing values that people hold as being important that are NOT dependent on religious belief. (When I composed the question I thought of including a sentence like 'please leave religion out of this' and thought better of it. It seems I should have 'thought worse' of it .
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Someone must think I cannot read let alone understand the kings english...In the original topic thread,religion--that word--was mentioned several times also perhaps being the core basis for any value system...Without being arguementive or combative,and with all due respect,there are some rather educated persons that read these posts..I am one of those educated persons and I CAN READ,COMPREHEND AND REPLY....Good topic by the way..very thought provoking..I do detect a great deal of anger at religion.I think that anger is misdirected.Perhaps that awsome anger should be better directed at the priests of religion..rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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It is rather discouraging to have my replies jumped on and picked apart.My honorable service in the US NAVY and three years service in a war that many did not want and getting shot in the butt by some angry people has EARNED me the right to comment now and again.I often wonder just how many members posting here can say they bled on the battlefield....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, it matters not whether we were wounded in action or not. That achieves a different type of respect. What matters is how we hold ourselves each day.
I think peole jump on your posts "just in case". OK, that happens. It means you have some uphill work to do. So climb the hill and show how worthwhile you are by today's actions
I agree that it is unfair to say "but being woinded has no bearing on things" and in another breath to look at a different past, but I guess life has unfairnesses
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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thanks for being so patient with me Timmy,its darn hard to live in a world where people have no concept of the price of freedom and that some very hard and painful choices must be made.I have seem many people change their tune when the shells and bombs start dropping close to home and i so do get a kick out of do-gooders that feel that (understanding and tolorant forgiveness)will clense the world of evil. I hope and pray that my comments are not offensive to anyone but I am proud and comfortable with my positions and feelings and am not ashamed to expouse them with all due respect.Some of us have earned that right...rob
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After my half century of inhabiting this world and traveling all over experiencing different cultures I have come to one conclusion. I want to treat others (and have others treat me) the same as I want to be treated. Sounds suspiciously like the Christian "Golden Rule" and it is.
I think (and from what I have read) most religions have a similar, if not exact, "rule" espoused through their own faiths.
Just my wish.
Hugs, Charlie
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It's seems to me that no matter where I look most books of wisdom say in some way or another that all the good flows from Love.
I know it seems so simplistic.
Now I know this may cause a fire storm. But please consider the totality of what's being said here. Not it's source nevertheless no matter the values I hold highest, this is the root.
Love is patient and kind; it is not jealous or conceited or proud; love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; love does not keep a record of wrongs. Love is the truth. Love is eternal.
In the end it's all up to me,it is the way I react towards my environment and the ppl in it that shape it to an extent, a great one I hope.
I know idealistic huh,well, what would you rather have, the ideal or the reality of what the world is becoming? A hateful intolerant place! You know the drill but let me just list a few that come to mind anyway;
America; Hate crimes against gays, I could go on here but we all are getting so numb to what's in or own back yard!
Brazil; throw away children being killed by police death sqads
Isreal/ Palestine; What more need be said
Liberia
The Congo; genocide The Huto and Tutu
Spain: the Basqe
England; The British and Irish and P Irish against C Irish
Iraq
Iran
Afganistan
Pakistan and India
India the untouchabls
India and Shrilanka
Indonesia; agian the Christians and the Muslums
The list of hate goes on and on!
The list of Love well, that can only begin in your heart but somehow I think it can be infectious.
aRich
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Any man who has been harmed in battle when fighting for their country is to be commended.
I am sure no person would dispute that notion.
There are however, many fronts from which to do battle.
None of them are pleasant. But they are obsticles to be overcome nonetheless.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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I kept thinking about your question today, Steve. I watched people interact with each other and my contribution to your survey would be:
Respect ~
Respect for the differences in each other
Respect for human life
People just don't seem to respect that we are all one family of Earth and whatever differences we have whether color, sexual preference, ethnic origin, religion....we cannot seem to get along. The feeling seems to be "He's different...Hate him". I was telling Tommy tonight that my church 'taught' me to hate ME. The reverse happened in that I now accept everyone, no matter what the difference.
Human life means so little anymore. How many people die everyday at the hand of friends, family, or total strangers. How hard is to like people, respect them and ask that they like and respect you back?
I know I'll never stand on a street corner holding my boyfriend's hand but maybe, one day, someone will when people can learn to respect that we were all made from the same mold, just different colors and different orientations to keep things interesting.
smith 
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Honesty
Compassion
Love
Trust
Empathy
Willingness to work
Patience
Perserverence
Ability to share
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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"I know I'll never stand on a street corner holding my boyfriend's hand . . ."
Unless it's too personal, of course. I really hope you do.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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sure beats some of the past pablum posted...rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It's a bit like seeing an unexpected schooolteacher marking your work. It is your intention to encourage, I know. Yet it feels as though it has the opposite effect.
There are no good or bad posts. I have no idea what pablum is, but it sounds rather derogatory in the context you use it. If people have a need to post it, whatever it is, why should they not do so? We all come here for a reason.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Don't laugh, but I dreamt at some point during a very restless night, that I was a "rookie" bishop and had to hold a service. Typical "panic" dream I had lost the "script" so ad-libbed by reading the following. Old Saul/Paul new what he was on about!
Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil
but rejoices in the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perserves.
Love never fails.
And now these three remain:
faith, hope and love.
But the greatest of these is
love.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Respect is a thing earned, it can not be bestowed.
But I do see what you are driving at and I agree. The differences that are apparent in our society are the catelists to disaster, when we should celebrate them. Look to each different person and rejoice in the fact that the human condition can produce such a wide spectrum of people.
Each and every one of us, from every culture, from every religous background, from every sopt on earth, each one of us have the ability to make our world a better place for everyone, everywhere.
Just my 2 cents worth
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I dont understand your message Timmy but I will heed the warning.Personally I think posters that bring intelligent thought provoking topics should be encouraged and aknowledged.To answer your question about pablum,it is baby food,a highly refined oat product that is tasteless and generally bland....I am not part of the click here on this forum,however I do like many of the people here.But the reason I come here is to learn new things and to be stimulated by lively and meaningful discussion...It truely saddens me to view the lack of response to Sarahs topics...they were truely awsome..Why must I remain silent when a awsome post is made?,,,rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There are, to my knowledge, no cliques here. If there are, no-one has invited me to join one.
What I mean is, sometimes what one perosn sees as encouragement others see as patrionising. It's a very hard tightrope to walk. What you see as "Wow, awesome!" may be seen by another as "THAt one was great but the rest were crap". As usual ther problem of the printed word is that the eyes are not visible. With eye contact our meaning is clear. Without it we can be totally and terribly misunderstood.
It;s an art. None of us gets it right 100% of the time.
I am not picking on you, by the way. The examples you are providing make awesome basis for guidance. And I know you are man enough not to mind being a helpful example. (That paragraph was also capable of being misunderstood - see the problem?)
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I can't fault Trevor's list, but I'd add tolerance and humility. These are pretty much the same; I suppose what I mean is the ability to realise that our actions affect others, and the need to accept that our personal liberty must therefore be limited.
I'm not sure about Oliver's quote from St. Paul. I've no quarrel with hope and love, but just before the quoted passage Paul says that Faith "...is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen...". That was fine in the context of Paul's day and age, but today 'faith' is used as a justification for bigotry, intolerance and downright evil. I don't deny that there is a God, but faith should be limited to a belief in his existence and should not involve slavish acceptance of man-made explanations of his actions. After all, the Muslim God, the Jewish God and the Christian God are all the same Supreme Being, differently interpreted by the political agenda of men.
Let's stick with hope and love, and pray for an end to bigotry and intolerance!
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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No Message Body
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I've just now finished reading all the replies. I find myself wondering about them. I think I've come up with what my values would be.
caring
respect
tolerance
understanding
trust
honesty
And one that probably won't make sence. "blindness" That might not be the right word, but what I mean is to have the ability to overlook things.
Don't get me wrong, these values can be only taken so far until even the person that believes in them can't follow them.
Shadow Warrior 2
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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could be acceptance. Acceptance that everyone is differenct and everyone has the right to be whatever they choose to be.
To be accepted is to be approved of, believed in or recognized for the very thing that makes them unique.
smith
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Almost. But I don't accept people, they just "are". Not always, but usually. Neither word is right yet. But I can't think of better ones yet
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Yeah, good to see you here!
I know what you mean about "faith", but I think used to mean religion or theology or doctrine or whatever is actually twisting it's meaning. I guess maybe that's really what you are saying, too.
Maybe "trust" or "blind trust" is better?
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