A Place of Safety
I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love.
Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving!
We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
















You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Values (response)
Values (response)  [message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 03:00 Go to next message
Steve is currently offline  Steve

Really getting into it
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465



First of all I want you to know that I am really grateful to all those who responded to my original post. Before I take this a stage further I want to respond to the suggestions made so far. This response is also intended to give those who want to the opportunity to post a disagreement with me.



My original post posited the need for a values-system in a "post-religious" age. The great thing about 'religion' (as known in the West) was its ability to educate to certain values (either through promise of reward or threat of punishment). I have one criterion to judge the usefulness or necessity of the values you have all suggested: is this value essential to being a good person? In other words, is it impossible to be a good person if you do not subscribe to this value?



I believe (and please shoot me down if you disagree) that one can be a good person without demonstrating independence, personal responsibility, a willingness to work and perseverance. Certainly they are positive values and much to be desired in a person [sigh], but I do not think that they essential and that without them one is a villain etc.



I think that love, trust and faith are not values in this sense either. If our objective is to 'be a good person' in a post-religious age the litmus test will surely be how I behave towards other people: I can behave 'nicely' towards them in the absence of love. While I certainly should trust in my own values I do not have to trust someone else in order to treat them 'nicely'. If by faith one means religious faith its inclusion in this list is self-defeating; if we mean faith in other people surely that can sometimes be misplaced and should not be a universal rule. If we mean faith in ourselves is this any different from trust?



Most of the other values suggested do seem to be 'behaviour' values and every single one of them would be a wonderful trait to possess: respect, honesty, compassion, empathy, patience, ability to share, tolerance, humility, hope, caring, understanding, blindness to others' faults, acceptance of people as they are. But are they essential? While they are all indications of the goodness of a person's heart would their absence make it impossible for him to be a good person?



One suggestion was "bedonebyasyoudid". I strongly object to this. One of the greatest problems of any ethical system is to answer the question "why do bad things happen to me if I am a good person?" According to "bedonebyasyoudid" if something bad happens to me it must be because I deserve it: this is nonsense. Just think of the people we know or have known on this board who have suffered at the hands of others through no fault of their own! (If there is one lesson that everybody needs to be taught it is that not always is life fair.) (The book of Job in the Bible spends 40 chapters discussing 'why do the righteous suffer?' and does not come up with a reasonable answer. Also, in a 'post-religious' age the idea that suffering in this life will be rewarded in another is not acceptable.)



This leaves "doasyouwouldbedoneby". This seems to be an admirable value, a core value, and - most important of all - a value which is educable: you can teach it to people. Personally, I agree with George Bernard Shaw that "the golden rule is not 'do unto others as you would have them do to you' - your tastes may not be the same". I think it is safer to express this same thought in the negative: never do to someone else something that you would not like them to do to you. (It would help enormously in the implementation of this rule if people have respect, honesty, compassion, empathy, patience, ability to share, tolerance, humility, hope, caring, understanding, blindness to others' faults, acceptance of people as they are.)



So, before I take this discussion a stage further let me ask whether you disagree that in a coming 'post-religious era' the essential value that must be taught as a guide to human inter-relationships is "never do to someone else something that you would not like them to do to you"?



I apologise that this post is boringly long. Over to you, now.

icon13.gif Re: Values (response)  [message #13714 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 03:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



this post and its contents are so outragiously convoluted and twisted that for once I am at a loss for words.I am speechless and angry as hadies.I will not comment further as I dont want to anger Timmy but you can bet the farm I have a lot to say but will not.God Timmy what about the kids that might read this crud....rob---
Re: Values (response)  [message #13715 is a reply to message #13714] Fri, 29 August 2003 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve is currently offline  Steve

Really getting into it
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465



In view of Rob's response to my message I have decided to withdraw from this message board for a while. I had no intention of giving such enormous offence. My apologies to all.
Re: Rob i'm a kid (15)  [message #13716 is a reply to message #13714] Fri, 29 August 2003 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344




I read it and i think the man has some good points even when i don't totally agree with it. He stated his opinion and i accepted it.

As for you, i don't see why you don't want to post your opinion. Just don't direct it to anybody and just write about what values you think we should have, state your opinion. Do like the person above, explain what you believe and i think that way you are going to make your point without offending anybody. I would love to hear what you have to say.

But hey i'm a kid, what do i know anyways ? Right?

Just a thought.

With respect,

M.
Re:Why Steve?  [message #13717 is a reply to message #13715] Fri, 29 August 2003 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344




That is Rob's oponion, and only his, he has the right to disagree with you. However , a big HOWEVER , he doesn't speak for us. I'm sure not everybody will think like that. Don't let it get to you, wait for other reponses and see what they have say.

I know what Rob might have said sounded bad and it hurt you , it is just his opinion and let it be that way. PLEASE don't go away, stay around to read other responses. Your point of view is totally valid.

Hoping you will stay

With love ,

M.
icon14.gif Steve thanks for your post at least you inspire thought !  [message #13718 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 04:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



What I say now I hope is applicable to some of what has been said so far.
My thought is that love is a value not only that but if one does not or is is unable to love oneself how could any of these other " values " follow.
I do like your phrase "post religious" era". Or age was it? I myself would hope it would be followed by a "Spiritual" era but then that opens another whole can of worms doesn't it hehe.

Rich

Oh and BTW isn't it great to know that kids CAN think for themselves and don't have to be limited by the dogmatic views of others... Thanks M!



People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
icon14.gif Re: Rob i'm a kid (15)  [message #13719 is a reply to message #13716] Fri, 29 August 2003 04:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



Everyone should know that I defend this persons right to his opinions.What got me going was that I percieved that one was questioning MY values.Please dont leave this forum because of me or my opinions,and they are just that,my opinions..MY opinions can be changed if the logic is there.What I sense about a lot of members on this board is that many are angry at GOD and belittle HIS existance....Here is what I will do--I rob,will vacate this board so that everybody is comfy..It seems that every principle that I have been taught and have lived by is either shot down or belittled.Personally I do not enjoy having godless and faithless people stabbing me,it hurts!I would like to think that I can trust my feelings and who I am with others,such is not the case.In closing,I do wish to thank Timmy for allowing me to be here..I am grateful for that..rob
icon4.gif values do not incude pissing contests  [message #13721 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



This is like one of Steve and Rob driving a porsche and the other a BMW M5. Look at yourselevs, please.

"I will withdraw!"

"No, I will!"

This is very silly, and wholly non useful.

Everyone has a right to disgaree. As long as disagreement is posted with thought and politeness then it remains valid.

So cease this pissing contest.

[Updated on: Fri, 29 August 2003 12:50]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Values (response)  [message #13722 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



I disagree with you over "bedonebyasyoudid". I think you have it from the wrong end. It is not about "Why do bad things happen to me because I am a good person". It is "Do wrong and the same wrong will happen to you." There is nothing to stop someone else with free will from being beastly to you, but, and this is the essence, they should then "bedonebyasyoudid".

This is not "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", nor a vendetta style thing. I quite simply expect it to happen. It seems to me to be justice that an abuser or kids has problems with picking up soap in jail, yet how blameless are those to appply that natural justice to them?

Neither of the two faires shows why bad things happen to good people. They show how to live a decent life. Regrettably one has to rely on other also living by those principles. One also has top rely on everyone getting them right.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Religion is the opiate of the masses.......  [message #13727 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



And opium is addictive.....

Religion will always be a considerable thorn in humanity's side. There are far too many people in the world without the presence of mind to be able to do enough thinking for themselves to be able to live effectively without the guidence of a ruling clergy.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Values (response)  [message #13728 is a reply to message #13711] Fri, 29 August 2003 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ch.oo.lo is currently offline  ch.oo.lo

Toe is in the water
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49



Religion has been around ever since people were nomads. I get the distinct feeling it won't go away anytime soon. It's a way to explain why things happen, and until science can convince everyone that its explanation is the best/right one, at least the foundations of the major religions today will survive. One of the foundations of these religions is 'do unto others as you would have unto you' or something like that.

I personally don't think that it needs to be taught, it's understood. Or at least I think it is, although, teaching it would ensure its understanding and reinforce its 'truth'.

Moving on:
Respect, honesty, compassion, empathy, patience, ability to share, tolerance, humility, hope, caring, understanding, blindness to others' faults, acceptance of people as they are. But are they essential? A few of these are ingrained into human genetics. The ability to share, for example. People share, but only when expecting to get something back. What they want in exchange may not be what they gave, but people do give to receive (this is generally an unconscious thing). Empathy. Two simple examples, babies cry when another cries and we yawn when someone else does. It shows human unity. There are a few others as well. If a person were clearly missing these, he would be viewed as strange (biologically) and perhaps that could turn into feelings of dislike as a result (?).

Ok, I'm done. I'm not entirely sure that made sense, but that's ok.

-The One and Only Ch.Oo.Lo
Rob...  [message #13730 is a reply to message #13714] Fri, 29 August 2003 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ch.oo.lo is currently offline  ch.oo.lo

Toe is in the water
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49



The facts that I am younger than M, and haven't been on the board (at least posting) gives you the right to ignore this completely.

You don't like your ideas being attacked, that's completely understandable, most people don't. But then, you go and do the exact same thing to other people without much of a reason as to why. I'm not really sure how this started, nor do I need/want to. There were a number of times when you said some things that weren't /that/ nice, but they weren't mean either, where I couldn't tell whether or not you were kidding. You should use smileys more. People can't see your face or hear the tone of your voice, that puts people on the defensive quite a bit. It seems almost as though you have 2 very seperate distinct personalities. You have the one which feels the need to disagree with nearly everything, despite the fact that you state that that is not your intention. Then there is the one which pops up after you are repremanded for doing such. You often say 'I'm sorry, these are my views, I will leave/take a break', then people come and say 'No, no, you don't have to' thus inviting you to stay and keep on with ths cycle. (this really should have been 2 paragraphs Smile )

I'm definitely not saying that you should not express your views, thoughts or feelings, that would make me a hypocrite. Perhaps it is not your posts that anger people but the way in which you do so. I do believe you used the words convoluted, twisted, and crud in reference to Steve's clearly well thought out post. Don't. Plain and simple, don't say that. Well, actually, /do/ say things like that but don't say it quite that way.

Another thing, don't apologize just don't do it again. Timmy's warnings often illict an apology from you, and yet you do the same thing over and over. And get angry when people 'yell' (well, not yell, but you know) at you.

Here I am chewin' rob out, when there are a number of people who have perpetuated this problem. I don't know you by name, but there are a few who did.

Ok, I'm done. I apologize to rob, this is by far the meanest post I've ever made. I think it was a little direct/harsh (that's probably attributed to my lack of understanding of emotions). I doubt you'll actually learn (I'm not dissing your reading abilty nor your learning aptitude) anything from this, since it's already been said by a number of other people. I just thought that maybe a newbie view would be different (?).

Sorry for this being so off topic.

- The One and Only Ch.Oo.Lo
Re: Values (response)  [message #13824 is a reply to message #13728] Sun, 31 August 2003 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
david in hong kong is currently offline  david in hong kong

On fire!
Location: American working in Thail...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 1101




This has been a very interesting thread, Steve. I appreciate you posting it for us all to think about. Please don't go!

One further thought on how values and beliefs get formed...I think values get formed in order for people to live together effeciently and (hopefully) peacefully.

I think beliefs get formed in order to make sense of a world that doesn't often make much sense. For instance, the "why do bad things happen to good people" question. Buddhists tried to answer that by extending the logic further backwards in time. They invented karma. If you have been good this time around in life, that helps you in next lives for sure...but if something bad happens to you now despite a good life now, then it has to do with something you did in past lives. Personally, I never liked this concept very much, as it tends to blame the victim of bad things..."see, it isn't your fault now, but it was your fault before..."

That is one way for people to try and make sense out of a non-sensickle (sp) world. I have no idea whether this is an accurate belief, any more than any other religious beliefs. Just reporting how a lot of people think about themselves and what happens to them.



"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
icon13.gif Gettin' Phil-o-sophical ...  [message #13862 is a reply to message #13711] Mon, 01 September 2003 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
james fenwick is currently offline  james fenwick

Getting started

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 3



Sorry, Steve, but I can't accept your conclusion. On a silly level, it conjures up a picture of a masochist dashing round beating the hell out of everyone, because that's what he'd like them to do to him! The idea's not too fanciful, though, because the world is home to so many ethnic and social groups, each with its own idea about what constitutes acceptable behaviour. What we would like others to do to us may be vastly different from what others would like us to do to them.

I think that George Bernard Shaw's reservation applies just as validly to your 'negative' statement as to the 'positive' version he was considering. I don't see how you can define the ideal secular ethic for a post-religious era without using the qualities - virtues, if you prefer the term - which have already been suggested. I still reckon that tolerance and humility have a place near tha top of the list, and I still endorse Trevor's list.
So, over to you!

In conclusion, I have to say that I am at a loss to understand Rob's post above. As a compulsive lurker, I have seen dozens of his posts here and elsewhere, and they are far too often rude, aggressive and unpleasant. The strange thing is that in perhaps a majority of instances (though not this time) I find myself agreeing with his underlying point of view. Time and time again he has weakened or destroyed his case by failing to consider the reaction his choice of words would inevitably generate. I wish him well, and I hope that neither he nor Steve will over-react to their little spat above. But, try as I might, I can't understand what drives him.
icon6.gif Re: Gettin' Phil-o-sophical ...  [message #13863 is a reply to message #13862] Mon, 01 September 2003 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



Aw you caught me out..Finally one person has figured ol rob out...I have several confessions to make..The first is that instead of printer paper I use toilet or loo paper for my printer..That saves me a lot of money.The second confession is that I use a kind of litmus test for all philoslopical posts...I print these posts on this toilet paper and when I am cleaning up from a dump,If my finger presses thru the printed paper,then I respond to the post in an unkind mannor In steves post,not only did my finger poke a hole thru the post,but my whole hand slipped thru and got pretty messy..So now all you guys know why rob gets a little kranky when some posts appear.It should be noted that I defend the right for all to post,but when I poke my finger thru these printed posts,I get a little upset..I further sense that a lot of people are quite angry at the creator and the seemingly unfairness of life and lash out at that same god and broadcast to others their strange fears.I do not like godless and non-spiritual people as I percieve them to be.My values ,true,are a bit old-fashoned,but I have the comfort of knowing that the few guys whose foxholes I was lucky to share have the same values and dont waste effort questioning those values as they have been forged in the furnace of life..Simply put,I sensed a person who seemed to question what values I hold dear..Please remember if it wernt for us old soldiers,a lot of people would be kissing Darth Vaders tutu...rob
icon8.gif Enough Already !!  [message #13871 is a reply to message #13863] Mon, 01 September 2003 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smith is currently offline  smith

On fire!

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095



I take GREAT offense to you discussing your rather gross bathroom habits and God in the same paragraph. Please try to express your opinions without the potty mouth.

For you to have the audacity to throw the words 'Godless' and 'Nonspiritual' out without knowing who we are or what we believe is wrong. This was supposed to be a thoughtful, thought-provoking discussion posted by someone who wanted to hear our opinions. No one has said they are angry with God or find life unfair. No one questioned "your values that you hold dear"; someone asked how these values will be passed on to the next generations. A question was asked:

If the trends that are growing in society today continue in the next 50 years, that of disconnecting from religious beliefs held for so long as the rules of life, how then will respect, empathy, honesty, compassion, tolerance,humility, acceptance, etc be taught? How will young people learn these values?

Never do to someone else something that you would not like them to do to you is a fine concept except that what if they haven't been taught that? Too many people today have learned the hard way take what I want because I want it ei...rape, theft, murder.

People who question aren't Godless. The Bible was written thousands of years ago for the people who lived then. Applying it to the 21st century, realizing that it was already the opinion of the men who wrote it and knowing too that so many people today can't read above a third grade level makes the question very valid. People aren't Godless.....God lives inside each of us, it's what we choose to do about it that counts. But how do we know what to do with it if we aren't guided by someone who knows the way?
Cheating on exams, vandalizing schools, killing someone you don't like, stealing what you want in stead of working for it....why NOT do it? What stops me from doing those things?

Values are taught. Who is teaching them? When Dad cheats on his income tax, makes rude comments about someone of different color or nationality when people make jokes about someone they think is gay, the child is learning..........You influence people everyday. You teach them by what you say, what you do. So, if our values that govern our lives are NOT being taught in Sunday school or at home, how will people children learn them in the next 50 years?

smith

(editted to enable [and correct] the HTML [easy to forget to do that]- timmy)

[Updated on: Mon, 01 September 2003 12:30] by Moderator

icon9.gif Re: Enough Already !!  [message #13875 is a reply to message #13871] Mon, 01 September 2003 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



My post was ment as satyre and not to be taken too seriously.Obviously you dont like me and I prob. deserve that.but I dont deserve to be flamed ......BTW Going back about ten to twenty pages ,someweres around april,I happened to mention taking up the CROSS. Darned near everyone jumped on my case...So when I use the terms godless and unspiritual,there is some truth in those statements...I think most have about the same values,and most place about the same importance to these values...The problem seems in communication and the readiness to take offense when one is plain-spoken as am I...rob
You know "plain spoken" is fine  [message #13876 is a reply to message #13875] Mon, 01 September 2003 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



It's hard, though, to work out when a line is crossed. It seems to me that areas of faith or religion do not sit well with bodily functions for many people. So a sense of decorum us needed.

It is obvious to me that Jesus, assuming he was as the Bible says, also had bodily functions, and was a normal man with normal appetites, but it is not the done thing to mention it in explicit terms.

Probably best to consider the difference between "plain spoken" which you certainly are, and no harm in that, and "offensive", which generally no-one wishes to be or chooses to be.

The issues happen when one person's "plain spoken" is another person's "deeply offensive".

To remove this from its faith based environment, I think most people would agree that serving a hamburger to a vegan would be offensive when done on purpose, and would give accidental offense when done by accident.

To me this looks like hamburger. Offence has been taken. Only the server can correct the offence.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon9.gif Re: You know "plain spoken" is fine  [message #13877 is a reply to message #13876] Mon, 01 September 2003 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



you are absolutely right Timmy please accept my apologies on this matter.I think I keep forgetting that so many people take things a bit more seriously than I appear too.No offense was ment,but there are two sides to every coin and a careful reading of my post will indicate some humor--maybe a bit hard to understand by some..we ask that others respect culture and background..My background comes from rubbing elbows with x-military and we lived and played hard..You have requested that I keep my comments civil and refrain from blasting anyone that does not share my views..Sir my views are as valid 50 some years ago as they are today.And I am proud of those values and have the scars to prove that...I,in accord with your wishes to not be so controversial take every post I wish to respond to and duplicate that post on note-pad.I then read and reread several times before I respond.Perhaps what is not understood by some of the younger readers is that many of us old farts have paid a very high price just so that some can flame US for our oldfashoned concepts or ideas..Afterall,WE did save the world..I would hope that someone would take this person aside and explain what metamorphic examples are..I will try to use better judgement in the future...rob
icon6.gif Re: You know "plain spoken" is fine  [message #13878 is a reply to message #13877] Mon, 01 September 2003 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



that was a miss-spell,the word is metaphor or metaphoric
Re: You know "plain spoken" is fine  [message #13879 is a reply to message #13877] Mon, 01 September 2003 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



robert bryce wrote:
>Perhaps what is not understood by some of the younger readers is that many of us old farts have paid a very high price just so that some can flame US for our oldfashoned concepts or ideas..Afterall,WE did save the world

I snipped this from your reply. It makes an interesting point, and is worth a separate thread. I will post it as such, but I absolutely do not want anyone to think I an taking a shot at anyone.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon6.gif Re: You know "plain spoken" is fine  [message #13884 is a reply to message #13879] Mon, 01 September 2003 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



hehehe ha Timmy you have had me in your sights for a long time ever since I stuck my foot in my mouth so whats new..just a VERY polite shot,but this kid knows for a fact that Europe would all be speaking German had it not been for a lot of American blood..I VERY respectfully suggest a tour of some of the concentration camps and a few tours where good decent American boys have died bravely to defend your right to flame rob...
You seem to forget  [message #13886 is a reply to message #13884] Mon, 01 September 2003 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



If it wasn't for the Europeans then Americans would be speaking speaking Cherokee....



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon6.gif Re: You seem to forget  [message #13887 is a reply to message #13886] Mon, 01 September 2003 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



good post guy but all the smart ones swum the pond and made America great...hehehe just kidding--we just left the flamers behind...rob
I love very close to one of the largest war cemeteries in Europe  [message #13892 is a reply to message #13884] Mon, 01 September 2003 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



I've toured it several times, and been amazed at the breadth of nattions represented there, and the youth of the dead.

My background is half Viennese. Persecuted by Hitler.

Perhaps we wouls have been speaking German. Only I would not have been.

But I am not flaming you. Pulling your chain ever so gently, yes. Tweaking your ear playfully, yes. Sometimes a little ego pricking is not a bad thing for any of us. Mine gets deflated too at times.

I think it is simply that I don't see logical connections where none exist.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
icon13.gif Re: Enough Already !!  [message #13975 is a reply to message #13871] Wed, 03 September 2003 06:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



I was not going to respond,but I think a response is required in this instance..smith you dont really know what pain is.Soul consuming horrable pain that strips the person to the bone.Sir--when you have walked for a few miles in my shoes,you earn the right to be a little librial in what you say as long as what you say is not hurtful.My relation and faith with the god of my understanding cannot be shaken by a youth that serves only to hurt me period.My personal charactor is beyond your reach--when you attack me,I laugh.I have been there and done that.and I dont get my rocks by attacking you!!!!All in all I have made every effort to be as supportive as I can..A bit crusty I admit but I truely know the value of friendship and unconditional love..So if it makes you joyous happy and free to flame rob then have at it.I will still care,I will still have my faith and you can bet the farm that I sleep very well...thank you for your time....rob
icon8.gif This cannot stand unanswered  [message #13979 is a reply to message #13975] Wed, 03 September 2003 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796



You are making grave assumptions about another human without even knowing who they are or what they have been through.

Equally you are trying to rate and compare "my pain" vs "his pain". Each of you suffers 100% with whatever you have been through. To each of you that 100% is all consuming and awful. Neither yours nor his pain is "greater", for it is 100%.

This is not a pissing contest for pain.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2003 07:30]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Nope, rob.....I don't know what pain is.........  [message #13990 is a reply to message #13975] Wed, 03 September 2003 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smith is currently offline  smith

On fire!

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095



You know me SO well. I have a perfect life. My biggest problem is which pair of Diesel jeans I'll wear today. If you wanted to make a tv movie of my life, it would be too boring to watch. Pain has never touched me. Thank you for reminding me.


Danger Will Robinson!!! Metaphor Alert !!

Old pain is armor that you can shield yourself with all your life, never letting anyone in or ever putting it down....unless you choose to let it go.

smith
OK Steve, I may get beatin up by this one ......  [message #13991 is a reply to message #13711] Wed, 03 September 2003 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kevin is currently offline  kevin

On fire!
Location: Somewhere
Registered: September 2002
Messages: 1108




I have thought about these issues a great deal over the years. I must (ever so slightly) disagree with a small portion of your reply here.

I did not see the original post ... (disclaimer)

In your new post you say ...

"Most of the other values suggested do seem to be 'behaviour' values and every single one of them would be a wonderful trait to possess: respect, honesty, compassion, empathy, patience, ability to share, tolerance, humility, hope, caring, understanding, blindness to others' faults, acceptance of people as they are. But are they essential? While they are all indications of the goodness of a person's heart would their absence make it impossible for him to be a good person?"

I do believe you are slightly wrong here. A person can be lacking in any of these, maybe even a few or all. But if a person was completely devoid of these traights, they would not be a good person. These charactoristics are indications of goodness.

Other than that, I agree with you for the most part. My views on religeon are quite controversial, so I will refrain fromn talking about that right now.

Peace and Love,

Kevin



"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
icon8.gif Re: Enough Already !!  [message #13992 is a reply to message #13975] Wed, 03 September 2003 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kevin is currently offline  kevin

On fire!
Location: Somewhere
Registered: September 2002
Messages: 1108




Please Rob, show smith the respect you would want shown to you. Do not assume his place in life as I (or he) has not assumed yours.

Just be kind OK? Please?


Hugs,

Kevin

P.S. I read Timmy's reply an I totally agree.



"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
icon4.gif Re: OK Steve, I may get beatin up by this one read carefully  [message #14043 is a reply to message #13991] Fri, 05 September 2003 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



darn it guys,what defines a persons character?If a person lacks these benchmarks of character then what is he or she?The lack of these character bits are what make our society a jungle.Swimming in this kind of pond,I would rather swim with the sharks--perhaps I am swimming with the sharks.The mention of a post religious era really stabs my senses...These are the reasons why I spoke out,not at the person,but what that person uttered.My entire position is to generate debate and that has happened--but where do thoughtful persons draw the line?Karl marx debated and vomited his ideas.Hitler did the same.Europe and most of the world ended up with 40 million dead,hundreds of millions still suffering today.When will it all end.Who gives a rats butt where values come from,except to KNOW that these values are necessary for human survival....rob
Nope, just replied to.............  [message #14045 is a reply to message #14043] Fri, 05 September 2003 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
smith is currently offline  smith

On fire!

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095



rob~
We have to care a great deal where these values are coming from because they aren't being taught as they used to be. We need them and have to make sure they are being taught. How are children learning not to steal or lie or cheat or kill? The movies and games all show them how to do just exactly that. Where do they learn to value human life and the word of their fellowman? That's still the question.

smith
I think values of good are not taught  [message #14047 is a reply to message #14045] Fri, 05 September 2003 06:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



But innate in humanity in the form of one's conscience. What kids should be taught instead is how to listen to that little voice that says "hey, this isn't the way I should be going"... Too many people ignore their conscience, they feel a little guilty about something but then just justify it, everyone, regardless of their religion or lack of has a conscience and I believe that is something that is not based on being taught to do what is right, but instead something that just exists within the human being.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
icon14.gif Re: I think values of good are not taught  [message #14049 is a reply to message #14047] Fri, 05 September 2003 06:53 Go to previous message
robert bryce is currently offline  robert bryce

Really getting into it

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414



damn well said.Even as a child I can still remember my conscience being tweaked when I was doing something wrong...rob
Previous Topic: What rights does fighting for our country give us?
Next Topic: Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn!
Goto Forum: