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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In another thread, robert bryce wrote:
Perhaps what is not understood by some of the younger readers is that many of us old farts have paid a very high price just so that some can flame US for our oldfashoned concepts or ideas..Afterall,WE did save the world
This interests me greatly. So maybe I should set out my stall.
First, I am not taking a swipe at Robert by posting this thread. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
Second, I have to admire anyone who survived the militaryt while not being the classic heterosexual.
The question I have is, "Because a person has taken up arms for their country, whether by conscription or by volunteering, does that give them any more right to having their opinion hold sway than a person who has not done so (for any of the availabel reasons for not having done so)? If so, why. If not, why not?" ??
When answering this, please do not think that I am disparaging those who have fought, nor those who chose actively not to fight, nor those who wished to fight but have been denied the chance.
If any rights are granted by fighting, does this also hold true if the perons has been classified as a terrorist by those opposed to him? He has fought, you see.??
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I consider that anyone who has been involved in a war should be respected, obviously war is a trying period, not even for just those sent away, but for those who stayed at home. However, respect should be payment enough, the opinions of someone should be analysed independent of who the person is or what they have done. As seen many times here the 15 year olds often have better advice to give than dinosaurs like me (yup, at 18 I feel ancient :-/). When replying to someone you may need to add more or less honey to the response based on their background, but you should just accept something just because of who someone is. You should weigh up points of view based on merit of the point of view. In my opinion anyway, which probably isn't worth much....
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And to continually beat the "drum" extolling on the scars of battle does nothing to further their cause.
When the last shot is fired the war ends. Invariably, there are always some that insist on living out the remainder of their lives on the overgrown battlefield.
Just my opinion.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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i was hoping for a quick end to all this as i dont want to get banned again but darn it all,Im not gonna sit still while **** ***** young persons besmirch my values..Hell,we all pretty much have the same concepts or values and we pretty much hold the same things dear and close to the heart..It would seem that we have the same old argument between young and old--on one hand we hear WE DESERVE IT,and on the other hand we have adults that say EARN IT...what the heck,lets end this nonsense and talk about paint drying....rob....BTW,my point was not what was posted,but the mannor.This idea of post religious time--read again that same post..this time take a critical eye to how things were said and that some values do not hold water in this modern time...lets not confuse religion with human values.These human values come from a social compact or agreement between those in that society.Religion serves to explain the unexplainable..Timmy--this new thread only serves to continue the arguement.Lets take this up in 2004 or later...rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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interesting point timmy about surviving in the military as a gay..The answer is quite simple..you survive by being the kind of person that can be trusted.You survive by sharing a deep and abiding faith with others that seek council.You survive by being an honorable person that is unafraid to share his spirit with others.You survive by being lucky when covering your buddy when the flack starts and when alls quiet,no bad wounds.You survive by having the foolhardiness to tell an incompitent officer youl blow his head off if he gets one more man killed cause he cant find his butt with cold hands..You survive by hugging a young grunt and kicking him in the rear.And lastly you survive by telling some macho grunt he better love his buddy more than his girlfriend even if he has to turn queer....rob---mister how dare you question my values....
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I don't see anybody questioning your values, though I am certain that many people here have values that are DIFFERENT than yours, it does not mean that they are questioning yours or saying their values are better. They are just different. If everyone who posted here had exactly the same values and thoughts, it would be an incredibly boring place to visit.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It is time I set out my own views.
I do not believe that I owe a debt to any of my forbears who fought for their country, whichever country that was. I have a history in part in Europe and in part in England. England has been fought over often and the Austro-Hungarina Empire was a battleground too.
I believe that my forbears owed it to themselves to fight then for what they ether believed in, or were forced to fight for. They were fighting for their own survival, often again their alleged enemies as well as their masters. And some were compelled to fight against their own countrymen or be killed in deeply unpleasant ways.
History does not start with Christopher Columbus. Nor, I hope, will it end with the Bush dynasty, or hsi poodle Blair.
I do not find my forbears worthy of my respect bevause they fought. I do not respect any person for fighting, except for the act itself, and then under limited circumstances. That perons has no more right and no less right than any other to express an opinion, and no more right and no less right to be respected for it.
In other words it is not the actions of the person that generate my respect.
The sole thing that earns my respect is the opinion and jointly the mode of expression of that opinion.
I respect you, whoever you are, if you express to me an opinion, backed by logic, but do not ram it down my throat. the quieter you speak the more I am likely to listen. I may not respect the opinion per se. Fr example, the opinion "Black people are worthless and suitable only for manual labour" is an opinion thta I find overwhelmingly offensive. However quietly you say it, however much argument you may be able to find that appears to support you, I can never respect such an opinion. But that does not make it imposisble for me to respect you for the manner of expression.
Equally you may yell at me "Black people are better than any other race". You may be right in your opinion. The yelling of it devalues it because it prevents me from respecting the manner of delivery, thus devalues what has been said.
Neither having fought for your country, nor not having fought for your country are relavant to the right to express the opinion, nor my respect (or otherwise) for you.
For the avoidance of doubt, my opinion is that black people are neither of the above extremes. They, as I am, are simply people.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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25,000 smiley faces here...I am a rocket scientist and can detect such things...rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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robert bryce wrote:
> Im not gonna sit still while **** ***** young persons besmirch my values..Hell,we all pretty much have the same concepts or values and we pretty much hold the same things dear and close to the heart..It would seem that we have the same old argument between young and old--on one hand we hear WE DESERVE IT,and on the other hand we have adults that say EARN IT
Two things.- Age, here, is as irrelevant as orientation or gender.
- The young nor the old deserve a thing. Each has to earn it. Continually
No-one has besmirched your values. Unless those values are so skimpy as not to withstand a question or two, which I doubt.
There is little wrong with explaining values and with justifying them. And there is nothing wrong with having them questioned. A great leader will do just that. Lead and explain. A poor leader will direct and never explain. And each value system in this world has its fair share of each type of leader.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I give up.I yield.Wading thru the swamp of intellectually challanged is not my strong point..just kidding..I will now return to watching paint dry..much safer.....rob---
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Your insinuation reguarding intelectually challenged persons is an appauling at best. Trying to cover up your insulting remark with a cute "just kidding" only emphasizes the fact that you are indeed not kidding.
Watching paint dry sir is perhaps a pastime better suited to your particular needs. I wish it were different, but alas it seems it can not be.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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What was being said was that most just about have the same values-and varying degrees that we attach to these values but pretty much the same..I offer a fair solution.since you dont like me then dont respond or address comments about me.And I will do the same.That way everybody will be happy.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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this is a flame pure and simple and i am mad as heck timmy does not say something to you about flaming rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Lets accept that there are many varing views to be applied to every subject immaginable.
It is better that we all work together rather than avoid each other for our differences.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If I look at each person in this and other threads I see provocative language on each side. But no-one has treated you to a real, true flame. They have reacted to the more than intranisgent attitude you've been showing.
You've accused several peoplke of many things. These include some sort of schoolyard personality game, value besmirchement, not liking you, and severla other things, all worded either aggressively or defensively. I can't quite make up my mind which.
I can't say this any more clearly: Each of us generates the respect with which we are treated by our actions.
I also do not believe that nay of the things you accuse others of are happening, because with a decent post, of which you post many, you get a decent response. With an abbrasive post you get an abrasive response. That seems pretty normal behaviour.
Now I know you are feeling that you are being treated unfairly. I can't help your feeling it. I'm not going to start a discussion about whether I am or am not treating you precsiely as even handedly as I treat everyine here, but I will say that I am bending over backwards to do so, and I believe that I am.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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As a veteran of the Viet Nam and first Gulf wars and twenty-four years of service in the U. S. Air Force I have an opinion on this question.
Fighting for my country gives me the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. What? Oh yeah, so does every other U. S. citizen of any race, creed, national origin, age, educational level, sexual preference, et al. And actually every person in the world SHOULD have that right as an individual human being.
My experiences are just that, experiences. It may give me a different outlook on various situations which may differ from others with different experiences. But that is what shapes my personality, my individuality. As has been stated previously in this thread and on this board, if we were all alike and thought the same, this would be a very boring board. So Vive le Differance!
Actually, my service does give me one right. And that right is to get a big lump in my throat and misty eyes every time I hear our national anthem, or be reminded of the buddies I have lost too soon.
Hugs, Charlie
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Well said!!!!!!!!!
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The way I see it, the opinion of a veteran is no more valid than anyone else's unless you are speaking about that conflict or a similiar one.
However, they do deserve our respect, admiration, fair housing, a decent wage (if they still serve), health benefits associated with any 'conflict related injury or illness'. Oh and throw in the best disability benefits in the world. (Note: they do not actually get these things now, but they should)
THAT, my friends is the least we can do.
As far as the terrorist question, history shows that the "winner" of a conflict usually writes the history book.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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I call it junk when I see someone jump from a point of view to an attack on their value system.
Their is absolutely no logic in that at all. See a viewpoint as different and then state what you feel to be true.
A debate is not an attack, nor should it ever turn into one.
Kiss and make up already.
hehe
Peace not war,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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What rights does fighting for our country give us? 
Re: What rights does fighting for our country give us? 
Re: Rob, why is it that any time someone has an opinion different than yours, you see it as a personal attack? 
Re: Rob, why is it that any time someone has an opinion different than yours, you see it as a personal attack? 
Re: Opinions, rights and respect 
Re: What rights does fighting for our country give us? 
