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Many on the Cristian right in my country have came out vehemently against "Gay Marriage" saying that "Marriage is between a man and a woman" and that the Bible supports that.
OK, I will stiplulate that a religeon, or any church may forbid "Gay Marriage" in it's own doctrine. But not the state.
So, we will call it a "Civil Union". I am OK with that ......
BUT.....
If we stipulate that Marriage is religeous, then any couple wed by a "Justice of the Peace" (Judge) is in a "Civil Union" and are only granted the legal rights of that union, gay or straight.
Furthermore, if a church weds a gay couple, the state then cannot interfere with that religeon's right to do so.
Fair is fair people.
What are your thoughts on this?
Much Love and wedded bliss to all,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Marriage was designed for and defined for the procreation of children and the security that man and woman (hunter and homemaker) remained together long enough to raise the child to live an independent life. It is a practical institution adopted by the rule makers of the time - the religions.
It can be argued that a religious or a civil union has no place in anything other than breeding age mixed gender pairings.
Same gender pairings shoudl eb able to be recignised for civil benefits and for the laws of inheritance, but marriage per se is not required. It is not necessary to mimic heterosexual partnerships.
What is required, is a contract, if desired, between partners to state the formality of the relationship.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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This is partly my point timmy. Call it a civil union. But make it the same for heterosexual couples as well.
Not to tread on your views, just want a clarification.
Much Love to you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You see the promises eahc makes to another are already a verbal contract. There is truly no requirement for a piece of paper, expecially since the security it gives is illusory.
However, people often feel the need for a paper based contract, and civil laws about benefits, inheritance, adoption of children (a whole new topic), these all tend to need a formal contract to enable the party proividing the benefits (et al) to proivide them in "comfort".
And years ago I would have happily married the boy I adored then. because marriage was what I believed in. But all I really wanted was to be loved and to feel safe.
So does a contract provide either of these?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am calling it that. I will tell you why.
First, my only reason for even bringing up the issue is the rights of adoption, insurance benefits, medical decisions, retirement benefits, and a host of other rights denied us by our Gov't as if we are "lesser" citizens.
These are also my reasons for including the straight folks married by a judge as a "Civil Union". I feel much more progress would be made if some of them were grouped into our reality.
We do not have those rights now.
We should.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Kevin and I went to Vermont a little more than 2 years ago and went before a Justice of the Peace and said publically our vows.
What we did was something more than just a contract.... To us it was entirely a whole lot more than just "another civil union".
We were and are totaly committed to what we did and we still are just as much today. The words we spoke to each other that day, in the company of some of our best friends, mean that we as a loving couple intend to live out the remainder of our lives together.
I am not saying that our life is a miraculous romance like you read about in a gothic novel. We have our up's and down's just like any other couple, Str8 or gay. But we learn from each other, we are growing as a family, we revel in each other's presence and also in each other's individuality.
I wish the government could see it's way clear to recognise loving, committed relationships for what they are, but we will have to take what crumbs we can scrape from their table as they see fit.
With the government, thats the way it is. Like it or not.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I guess its ok to have differing opinions on this topic,but I feel that unless one has walked that mile in anothers shoes,its really hard to feel the others pain when society says YOU CANT DO THAT.I just recieved a bit of news from my old hometown,it seems that the city fathers of that town grew a set of balls and kicked the local scout troop to the street flatly telling them to find other accomodations at their expense and that the city voted to end any funding for that troop.I do hope this becomes a national trend...rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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While doing the information search, and upon our arrival in Saint Albans, Vermont both Kevin and myself (along with the rest of our party) were treated with absolutly the utmost respect.
The people in the city hall where we picked up the license were wonderful. There was also a glitch in the time we were to meet the JP at a beautiful park on the north shore of Lake Champlaine (due to a fammily emergency) and the city employees made certain we recieved the message.
It was without exception the happiest day of my life and i'm sure Kevin's as well.
We shall treasure it always.
Oh and it just occured to me....
Tim? Can we place one of our pictures of the union on the irregulars gallery?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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the idea that gay men want to marry mimicing any hetrosexual ceramony and the attendant flap over that is a bit silly..Gay men who wish marrage in the traditional sense are giving one hell of a compliment in wanting to do this..Many men have a deep and abiding faith that includes GODS blessing.I cannot understand why closet homosexuals that choose to wed a female or any other hetrosexual for that matter has some exclusive patient on marrage.The concept of spiritual blessing is universal and is not exclusive to same-sex couples.Hetrosexuals and closet homosexuals that marry females DO NOT OWN GOD and these people dont speak for him....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is a very parochial view....
What is required is formal recognition from the state.
What is required is equal rights.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Then I say and its only my opinion,lets abolish the state and start anew.Personally I think that its time that all good men throw down the gauntlet and take a stand for equal rights for all even if we have to nuke(and Im only kidding) some of the crap banging religious leaders.Ten megatons over the vatican should send a powerful message....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If I didn't say it in that post I am sure I said it in others. 
Equal rights are required by all classes of people in society, whatever other folk say against them.
Sometimes it is more difficult than other times to define an equal right. Taken to its extreme, I have, presumaby, the right to take a leak in a women's lavatory. Please don't think I am ridiculing. I am using a stuoid example to illustrate that society determines (often wisely, often unwisely) where an equal right finishes.
Marriage per se is still a form of union "designed" for children to be produced. It is undeniably what marriage is for. It is how the institution was created and formed and how the contract is made.
People of the same gender seem to require a different form of commitment, despite the absolute need for equal legal rights (benefits, inheritance, prooery, etc).
The topic about those of us who, while gay, are in a heterosexual marriage (introduced elsewhere) is a side issue, but the point made there about same gender couples and the mimicry of a marriage between heterosexuals is well made there.
The ceremony (if one is desired) may be any ceremony the couple wish. But it is rights, and, if desired, a blessing, that are far the most important.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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marrage does not have a damn thing to do with children so dont cloud the issue...marrage is the spiritual commitment between two people and NOTHING MORE.straights or closeted gays do not hold the patient on marrage...rob
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I appreciate your opinions. For me, the equal rights portion is the only thing I am concerned with. For others it may be the contract. Still others, being married like a heterosexual couple may be what they are searching for.
Whatever your motivation, we aren't there yet. But I do feel that equal rights is a good place to start.
Thanks for sharing.
Much Love to all,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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equal rights for all would come a lot sooner if only lots more people became involved.In Florida,the state just killed a guy that put his life on the line.He got caught.Thats a shame!....rob---too many dogooders and not enough bullets.
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You seem to be implying that this religious zealot, who murdered two people because they did not follow his beliefs, was in the right. Please explain.
Zealot: a fanatical partisan, enthusiast
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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ok i get your point..Instead of killing the doctors,their hands should have been chopped off..rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This closeted gay, who is married and has been for 24 years, hurts every time he sees that phrase and would rather it not be used, nor the concept projected as such.
I happen to be in the closet, though less and less over the years
I happen to be married to a woman
I made the decisions I made in the time I made them, and they were thenthe right choices. I do not wish nor expect to have my nose rubbed in those decisions each time marriage is discussed. And it is making me both upset and angry.
Many people here are gay and married. Many peoiple who read this board are gay and married. The world has a huge population of gay people who are married. And I do not like the fact that the phrase being used is a slur on how we live our lives. It feels like a very specialised form of queer bashing, and I feel like a victim of it.
Without this closeted gay who is married this board would not be here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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It was designed for it, defined for it, created for it and has been "protected" for it for centuries.
Gay people have chosen to wish for a form of marriage rather than designing something that is equally formal (if desired) and gives equal benefits.
And it is the benefits and recognition of the status of a committed and formalised partnership that is sought. True equality with heterosexual people who haave chosen the commitment that makes a firm, contractual partnership.
Campaigning for "Marriage" is set to infuriate the religious monsters, for it is, historically, religion that created and administwered marriage, and these people see marriage exactly as my headline. About children. Campaiging for equal rights for a couple conmtracted to each other is a similar, yet very different animal.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Sorry Timmy,such an assumption does not fly considering human history.Social groups formed much before any religion.Children,or off-spring,are the result of union between a male and a female,and NOT the reason for that union.True,children are a part of that union and may become the glue that enhances that same union.As for any comment that I made concerning closeted gays,I spoke in reality..This was the way the world was and to a lesser extent that is the way the world is today.Again,this is reality no matter how uncomfortable it makes.Conditions will only change for the better only if reality and truth become a way of life.Sometimes I believe that religions (some)lull people into a fantasy world and thats gotta change if the human race is to prosper and reach its potential.My college professers prob could present a better case than I....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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robert bryce wrote:
> Social groups formed much before any religion.Children,or off-spring,are the result of union between a male and a female,and NOT the reason for that union.True,children are a part of that union and may become the glue that enhances that same union.
No disgareement with the fact that social groups formed potentially prior to religions, and it is pretty obvious that children are the result of mating. That isn't my point, though.
The point is that religions, especially the one known as Chritianity which I am most familiar with, set down the rules and regulations about marriage. Those rules, especially in the Roman Catholic sect, make some very specific regulation about not only marriage but also what goes on between partners during sex.
Religion created the contract of and the institution of marriage and made it inseparable from procreation and raising of children. The challeneg non heterosexual couples have is first to define their commitment in a way tghe world will be able to underatnd and cope with, and secoind to ratify such a definition in a way that the law makers are willing to recognise.
robert bryce wrote:
>As for any comment that I made concerning closeted gays,I spoke in reality..This was the way the world was and to a lesser extent that is the way the world is today.Again,this is reality no matter how uncomfortable it makes.Conditions will only change for the better only if reality and truth become a way of life.
I don't need to be made to feel uncomfortable here about the decisions I made in my life, and that is the point. One of the reasons I created this place is as an oasis. And people come here to feel whatever benefits they create from that oasis.
Not every gay man married a woman to hide being gay and not every str8 man married for love. Some of us took many years, decades, to work out why we were even in pain in the first place. And we met other people who were also in pain and started to resolve our issues.
I know the world is unkind at best. At Christmas with my employer I was forced to come out to people in order to defend myslef against a disciplinary hearing, which I then lost. And in April I lost my job in a way that I am contractually bound to say was a fair process of reduncdancy (so will say nothing different). I am 90% certain this is because I was allowing the real me to show through.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Rob, I feel that is an absolutely horrible thought. I could not disagree with you more strongly than I do right now.
I do not agree with the death penalty, but your solution is even worse than that. Are you really filled with that much hate in your heart?
I hope you are not and were just joking.
If not, I feel sorry for you.
Kevin
P.S. I am not flaming you, disrespecting you, or calling you names. I simply disagree with you, strongly.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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kev,do you really think im that kind of person?The death penalty in this country is a VERY SAD JOKE.What is even sadder is that doctors with their awsome skills are destroying life...But thats another issue best not addressed here.The point I was trying to make was if a crime or misuse of a skill is so henious,then perhaps the consequences should be serious.Say if an armed robber or other person uses a weapon had to face getting his hands chopped off,perhaps they would think twice about doing the crime.If a person committing murder on a child knew he or she was gonna lose their head,perhaps they would think twice.this could go on and on and I respect your opinion.One thing I know for sure is that you have never entered a village and seen small kids murdered by a vicious enemy and I hope you never do.Some of us have....rob
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I didn't think so. Or at least, I was hoping that you were joking.
But we in this country need to start to think of something besides just a stiff punishment as a deterrent.
For instance, does anyone think that the death penalty is a deterrent to a drug kingpin? As if they don't live everyday with the possibility of execution. And if they are executed, it is usually without due process.
A compassionate society would at least consider rehabilitaion as a possible solution. But in this country some kid with some dope in his pocket can get 5 years in prison. Statistics show that that might turn him (or her) into more of a criminal than they otherwise might be.
The fear peddelers in this country want us to believe 'lock em up and throw away the key' is the solution to everything.
Far to many people are in jail for non-violent crimes. Yet Ken Lay is lounging in Aspen in a 10 million dollar home. The kid with the dope is in jail.
That my friend, is really sad.
No disrespect intended,
And thanks for the clarification,
Hugs,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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kev I love your tangents and I really respect you cause you TRY to be so nice.Your thoughts seem to be even tempered and reasonable and the banter is refreshing.I like the way you think!!!!!...rob
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I know we all (especially me) need to learn and grow to be better people. I am a work in progress.
Hugs,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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i've read through this thread, and there's a lot i want to comment on, but i have a thing with speaking too quickly and jumbling things up.
i do want to say that while i understand marriage is 'designed' for raising children, and providing the spine of a 'stable fammily,' it's not wholly necessary for that, it's not even used for that anymore (look at all the people getting married just to GET MARRIED, many never having children, or divorcing before that even happens). when you ask people now, why they get married, or want to, it's: "because i love him/her." which i tend to think is bull -- not for everyone, oh no, but the rate of failure for marriages now, is alarming.
marriage isn't a neccessity. it's useful for insurance purposes, and other certain legal benefits, but if it's a matter of love ... i don't know. it should be made fair, i wish gay marriage WAS accepted everywhere -- as it is, there's some states that won't recognise the union in their own state, if it was done in a state where it's legal. if a couple is in love, then just be in love. i did a handfasting for my friend and his boyfriend of 3 years. it's not legally binding, but THEY felt it necessary. they were angry they couldn't just go to the courthouse (though, hahaha, g. said he'd dress like a woman if need be!), and that they wouldn't be able to be on each other's insurance coverage, etc. but it made them feel comforted. what marriage may have been designed for, once upon a time, isn't entirely the case nowadays. like most everything else, the changing times have changed it over.
i raise a daughter and have never been married. i almost was, but thank god it didn't go that far, as the seperation and custody fight was hell enough as it is. i'm her mother and her father; her father is a place she goes to see and gets spoilt rotten for a weekend, or night. there's so many angles and aspects to consider.
hello, none of this had a point i fear! ;-D
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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The debate on this side of the pond .... Gay marriage ... 
Re: Marriage and non breeding couples 
Re: Marriage and non breeding couples 
In summary ....... 
every time I see this I hurt 
Re: P.S. Sorry for the tangent folks .... 
