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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I get taken to task for USA bashing when I make a comment about the intrusive nature of medical exams, and yet the exams are intrusive.
It is a huge jump from commenting on an examination regime (which seems to fuel almost all the teenage stories on Nifty) whcih intrudes into the lives of kids who have been made too shy to even allow their parents to see them naked and the bashing of a country.
I have never yet bashed the USA as a nation. I get heartily displeased by being accused of it, and I have wracked my brains for examples of bashing the USA. I can find none.
It is a generlisation to allegedly basjh a nation for certain small habits and practices. I disagree fundamentally with many things in almost all nations. These include:- circumcision for purely consmetic and non medcial grounds
- racial segregation and hatred
- postive discrimination for minorities
- negative discrimination against minorities
- religious fervour, especially in the persecution of those of a different religion
- The support of terrorist organisations
- incompetent education systems
- political correctness
- political curruption and rigged elections
- totalitarianism
- undue "social welfare" intervention in people's lives
- attempts to control what goes on between partners who cnsent in the privacy of their own homes
- Chauvinism (Chauvin's version, not Germain Greer's)
- Healthcare only for the wealthy or the insured
There is much more that I disagree with.
Many of these can be found in the USA, many in the UK, fewer in mainland European nations. And if I state that any of these are, in my view, wrong, I am not bashing the nation, but am bashing the item that is wrong in all nations that have such aspects in them.
I admit to having had a sense of humour failure over this accusation>
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I am very sorry that I was A bit critical there Timmy,I will try to be a bit more gentle in the future although I do hope you will be a bit more tolorent of us Americans....I think that doctors all over have to be a bit nosey or intrusive--thats the only way they can get truthful answers from their patients.Please reread your post again and look at that post from my perspective...My response was controled with a minimum of reflected anger,and the level of that response was well within the guidelines you suggested for me...Should I be faulted for being a proud American?.....rob
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i think part of the reason the doctors in american medicine are so nosy is because of patients like me. i will lie about how much pain i'm in, i'll look them straight in the eye and tell them yes, i eat balanced meals at least 2 or 3 times a day. just yesterday i had a run-around 50 minute Q&A with my gastroenterologist, because he knew the meds i'm on should = not having any pain, yet i have pain. because i'm not taking the meds regularly, because to take them i have to eat.
this is a ways off from andy's doctor experience, and this isn't to counter you, it's just i think the system adjusted to the people.
please note i'm not badmouthing the US .. however i am far more than just a little disheartened with the healthcare system as a whole, in the states. i've had 2 professors and four friends from canada rave in praise about canada's heathcare system (this from insurances to the medical staff themselves), and so i know the things you've said are not unfounded. that goes for the whole list, though i'd be writing a novel-post to give my opinions on those, hehe.
if the healthcare dilemma's that america has were going on in any other country, it'd be commented on/against concerning those countries. it just so happens that our system is geared toward the rich people, and the majority of america isn't as rich as what the rich people like to think.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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Sorry, but I have to agree with her 100%. If our government wasn't being paid off by the health insurance companies, we would probably have national health care. They don't want us to have it. They would be out of business.
I can't afford health insurance. When I was injured like 3 years ago, I had medical bills at almost the total of $9000.00 for a 6 hour stay. In the back of my mine everyday I think I'm lucky to not have gotten hurt today. I shouldn't have to live like that. God forbid one of our people on Welfare should get hurt, at least they have coverage.
Brian
To love oneself is the beginning of a life-long romance.
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i'm one of those welfare people, hehe! as in, i'm on state-funded insurance, medicaid, but i don't do the stamps/checks or anything like that. i let the government pay for my college, instead. one of the only advantages to being a single mother, is that i apparently qualify for more grants than i need, so i use the extra to pay bills.
but to GET that insurance? jesus. if we all think that the inquisition horror of doctors (like andy mentioned, though physically anyway) is insane and unfounded, this is ten times worse. which is why it never ceases to amaze me how some people, who do not need it or who are ABLE to work or go to school, manage to get it. last winter when i was super sick, before diagnosis/surgery, they wouldn't allow me to get assistance while i was down. as it is, i had to pay for 2000 of my medical bills before medicaid decided to kick in, regardless of it being a literal life-or-death situation by september.
meanwhile, the government spends 87 billion on a war whose purpose keeps changing more than i change underwear. but that's a whole other tangent. i do think that we should have national healthcare, like canada and other places. i realise other countries have it a lot worse than the US does; some have no coverage at all, some are lucky to even be alive. so i feel like a petulant child giving my two cents (well now this is 4 cents isn't it??). do they have a 'sheepish' emoticon? :-/
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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though maybe not always for his reasons.
My comments are as follows:
racial segregation - unless freely requested by all parties concerned.
religious fervour, especially in the persecution of those of a different religion - I would include those of the same religion who happen to hold more liberal or different views.
chauvinism - My own motto is "My country, right and wrong! - to be supported when right and to be castigated when wrong".
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Studying Chauvin will interest you here.
Lebensraum happened because of an excess of patriotic zeal. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22Oscar+Wilde%22+patriotism is also interesting. One must learn to moderate so many things in order to live in peace with one's neighbour
One has to be able to see, understand, criticise, and alter things within one's own nation, especially if one sets up to be the world's law enforcement agency, often with no mandate to perform that task.
One may love one's country, but not blindly. It is the same as seeing the faults in the person one loves.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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:-[ :-[ :-[ girl misplaced,
I owe you an apology, I get upset over our welfare system on a daily basis. It's there for a reason, but where I'm at I see so much misuse of funds that I can't help to hate the whole system.
Sorry,
Brian
To love oneself is the beginning of a life-long romance.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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This is going to be real tough for me Timmy,as I really have to bridle my emotions to deliver a respectful answer.Your darned right I am a proud American and the reasons are well justified.Most of the modern computer advances within the past 25 years were American generated.If my memory serves me right,the Intra-net and inter-nets were mostly developed and improved by American industry.The introduction of erotic and romantic novels and their proliferation,the major impitus, came from America. Other peoples from other countries all claiming the importance of THEIR efforts to bring about this modern miricle............You have asked and required that I be circumspect and gentle with any utterence I may make.I have read and reread that post several times and have even asked others for their comment.The comments about America at best could have been left out of any post as they besmirch this great nation..What I find really sad is that all the wonderful and awsome technology that America has delivered to the world,That same technology enables a platform for others to destroy a great nation that has done so much.......rob
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i'm just as pissed off about it as you are -- it's people who abuse it that ruin it for the people who need it. everything from the reputation of being on it, to making it more and more unavailable. i agree with you. 
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The United States is nothing more than one country in on a globe of many countries.
America is great in that it deems itself the police agency of the world....
Not a bad thing when aid is asked for but it is invasive when it is not.
Technology.... Well that is a global effoer is it not.... After all if it were not for two Swiss scientists working in colaberation and trying to find a way to get files from one lab to another the FTP or file transfer protocol would never have been developed and we would still be working on Commodore 64's
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I believe that to question your Government is the most patriotic thing you can do. Our founding fathers (in the USA) drafted a constitution that not only demands, but requires open debate among it's ctizens.
If Timmy did cticize our nation for actions or policies that he disagrees with, is that not the definition of free speech? Shoud we throw out the Bill of Rights? Of course not.
Some of you (if you live in this area) may have read in the newspaper, some articles that speak to things obout the Government and the society that I strongly disagree. That might provoke one to call me a USA basher. But only if that person was so blinded by what he (or she) sees as patriotism, that any reason or debate is seen as a challenge to what they hold up as perfect. And to challenge that perfection is seen as treason. Seems like a huge leap awawy from free speech.
No Nation on this planet is perfect.
Perhaps that is what heaven is for.
::-)
open your mind. It's worth the trip.
Much love to all of you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I have asked that you not respond to any post I may make as almost all are hateful and combative and quite frankly poisonous to this forum and are an affront to any decent minded person.......rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Read the post again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mention was made referencing American doctors....Now for the intelligent challanged,it does not take a rocket scientist to consider that the removal of (American) would have made the referenced comments neutral and should garner no offense.I am sick of the bias here,at least I can read a post or comment and comprehend the words and not twist them!!!!!!!!..rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is common knowledge that practioners of medicine in The United States of America (which incidently is the correct name of this country) are interested not so much in healing as they are in profits....
Someone from Brazil are Americans too....
As well as from Canada....
See america refers to the southern and northern continents....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Once again, I was not attacking you at all, simply reponding to the top of this thread. I am not aware of the original post or it's content.
I simply expressed my views about what Timmy referred to as "USA bashing".
I was not twisting anything you said or even responding to one of your replies to Timmy.
Though you found it nessecary to imply that my view was unintelligent, I will now refuse to escalate this further by calling your veiws anything similiar.
We can debate without fighting.
Hugs,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Im sorry Kev,I should not have bounced on you like that cause you seem like one of the good guys..I got to admit that a certain someone drives me up the wall,and the fact that Timmy does not play according to his own rules really bongs my bell...The term--Western doctors would have been more neutral and not sparked this debate..I do think that the water be tested in Ohio,especially around lake Erie and a certain city........rob
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Just thoughts on debate.
Sorry I think Ann Coulter is a kook.
;-D
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The water here is just fine....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I have been near the water there. It's very nice. ::-)
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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BTW--how are things at GWG.
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Thanks Timmy, Marc, Steve, girl misplaced, and brian for high-lighting a more International and sensible view of this whole excessive pride in the US issue! I don't see where Timmy was bashing any person or country.
Many doctors in the US are also driven by another issue than making money...they have to pay big time to avoid law-suits, and lots of their clinical practices are designed to protect against legal action, which in other countries wouldn't be such an issue. Don't know which has more powerful lobbies in Washington...the Medical Association, the legal Associations, or what...
And I just read an interesting statistic. Japan has as many scientists as the US has lawyers. Anybody who thinks that the US has cornered the market on scientific research and development should think again!
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It does no-one harm to be proud. Despiet pride being called a sin in at least one religion, pride is a worthwhile and laudable human emotion.
Excessive pride, however, is a conceit. It says "I (or my nation, or my football team) is better than anyone else. It accepts no reasoned argument against and allows no criticism of the entity one is proud of. I suspect "the sin of pride" is the issue of excessive pride.
For example, I am proud to have a Royal Family in the UK. I am proud of the institution and revere and respect it. If I said "It is perfect" despite evidence to the contrary, I would be excessively proud (and would surprise the current incumbents, too). It is imperfect, and frankly the current lot are pretty dysfunctional. In other words I am proud of it, patriotic towards it, will defend it, and admit its faults.
Regarding the original element about "American" (point taken Marc, but I am using it for compactness), I have not seen this intrusive medical examination system in any nation other than the USA. Thus it is a direct comment and observation about that system. It can hardly be biased, since it refers to something that is "there", and to be seen.
If, instead, I referred to either a universal practice, or one that palpably is not US perpetuated, and called it a "US Practice" then the point about "unnecessary use of the word 'Amerciab'" woudl be totally valid.
Now, elsewhere you also said "I do not play by my own rules." Well that requires more than you and me to judge. You feel aggrieved, I feel I am playing totally fair. Well that is the way of the world. I did not play by those rules when I banned you earlier. I noted that myself and reversed my decision, publicly, and with apology.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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robert bryce wrote:
> I have asked that you not respond to any post I may make as almost all are hateful and combative and quite frankly poisonous to this forum and are an affront to any decent minded person.......rob
Please do as I have asked and take such matters off the board. I have read Marc's post. It is what is called in a formal debating chamber a "point of information". Such things often correct misapprehensions, or serve to puncture misused arguments in debates. It was phrased neutrally, corrects (unless you rebutt the facts in it) a set of logic that was imperfect, and thus serves a purpose.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Just fine.
How are things in your life?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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james fenwick
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Getting started |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 3
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Am I missing something here?
Seems to me that Tim was drawing attention to the difference between the customary practice of doctors in the United States and those elsewhere. If he had used the term 'Western Doctors' his post would have been meaningless, because it would have included doctors in Western Europe - and the whole point is that Western European doctors DON'T indulge in intrusive examination unless there is an actual medical problem which requires it. Equally, they don't advocate male circumcision unless there is a specific problem which circumcision would alleviate. But as David rightly points out, the whole background to healthcare is different in the USA; in most of Western Europe healthcare is free or heavily subsidised by the state, and whilst lawsuits for negligence are by no means unusual, the Courts interpret negligence as failing to reach acceptable professional standards. That means that to avoid legal liability a doctor need only be fully competent, not infallible.
These differences exist. Surely the concept of liberty to which the USA is so attached means that Tim, or anyone else, is free to comment upon them?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is just that someone seems unable to not infect the board with confusion.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Did not know about the doctor reference. Sorry guys.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The doctor refernece was really mostly not relevant. It seems that the least thing that criticises the USA or anything else sets this tangent rolling. If one can set a tangent rolling, that is!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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To criticize my government whenever it does anything or adopts any policy with wich I disagree. Gay right, homelessness, racial profiling, standardized testing, unfair taxing of the poor, failed foreign policy, unilateralsm, pretending killing is a road to peace, imposing religeon (even one wich I am) on anyone, infringing on civil rights and so many many more.
If we do not fight against what is wrong we will never improve.
That is the most patriotic thing I can do.
Hugs,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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No Message Body
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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Re: Both interesting and grossly unfair 
YOU GO GIRL 
girl misplaced: please accept. 
Re: Excessive pride is one of those interesting issues 
I do not know anout the 'doctor' thing at all ..... 
