|
|
Steve
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
|
|
|
The discussion on patriotism adumbrates the kind of discussion that we could have on religion. It is a subject which can easily burn people's fuses. In something I posted a few weeks ago I suggested that we were heading towards "the post-religious age" (if we are not already in it). One person found the phrase felicitous another was outraged at the very thought. Maybe I should offer 'fact' instead of opinion. My only purpose here is to justify what I see as the great need for finding some other 'ideal of values' that will serve in the post-religious age to inspire individuals to behave 'nicely' towards other people.
Fact #1. The vast majority of people living in the western world today are religion-less. The most sanguine figures suggest that 16% of the people living in Great Britain consider themselves to be religious (any religion); In France it is only 14%; in Germany it is only 13%. That is to say that more than 70% of the population of the European Union do not adhere to any religious practice. As far as the rest of the world is concerned we can say that as a rule of thumb there is a kind of sliding scale: the more traditional the way of life of a country the greater the incidence of religious observance in the population. (You can use http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm to check out individual countries.)
Fact #2. The United States of America has probably the greatest number of religiously affiliated citizens in the western world. But even in the United States a very large number of people do not profess any religion at all. Here is a snippet from an article by Cathy Lynn Grossman in USA TODAY:
Americans almost all say religion matters, yet more people than ever are opting out. Not just out of the pews. Out from under a theological roof altogether. In 2001, more than 29.4 million Americans said they had no religion — more than double the number in 1990, and more than Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians all added up — according to the American Religious Identification Survey 2001.
You can use http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/gnoreligion/flash.htm in order to check out the statistics for the state in which you live - or any other of the 50 states that interests you.
So, let's not be 'proud' and 'patriotic' about our own religious adherence. The world is moving swiftly towards non-religion. What worries me is what will happen if we don't find something that can inspire the non-religious to adopt an agreed and functioning code of ethical behaviour towards other people.
Such a code would have to be very simple and susceptible to judgement. You can't measure "love" and so forth in other people: these values, in my view, are too subjective. But whatever value we espouse the question is how do you inspire people to its observance, how do you instill it into children, how do you make people ashamed not to espouse it?
[editted to make the links work. just type them in as the url including the http:// thing. Forget the a href bit - timmy]
[Updated on: Thu, 11 September 2003 10:38] by Moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Essentially, when religion begins to loose its lusture within a community there are several levels of substitutions which begin to fall into place.
As a whole, organized religions offer continuity within the premise that "without question we shall mandate your behavior" on pain of everlasting damnation. This tact was fine in the centuries past when religion was "THE" central focus of a communities social life. Later however, with the coming of the industrial age, more people were begining to relocate from the rural farm to the growing cities in order to get better incomes so as to improve their lot in life.
Along with better incomes, came eventually unions and with them better working conditions, even higher wages and shorter work weeks. This combination of conditions created an imbalance in the socioeconomic balance thus resulting in an excess of cash. As more and more people began to fine tune their newly found "free time" they began to mix more in an openly social mahher.
At first, as the need to mix socialy within the framework of the still stringent religous subculture waned, so did the publics need for that aspect of their "religous need". Most families maintained a firm connection within their traditionally chosen religon with their children. In essense the parents would send the children to church while they "slept in".
As the industrial age progressed into the technological era, along came the virtual abolishment of sunday blue laws. Once the field was wide open for sunday commerce a sort of choke hold came upon people to work weekends.
I could go on and on about how society is moving to a global economically based society, but as it applies to this thread the overall concensus was that social standards, morals and mores eventually will fall to the family, then to school then to business to regulate behavior, coupled in with a massivly developed infrastructure of governmental agencies to regulate nearly every aspect of human existance.
To put it rather bluntly.... It seems 1984 has arrived.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I read quite regularly that it is assumed that the more fundamentalist churches and religious movements are the ones that grow the fastest, in comparison to more "liberal" ones. But maybe it's just that the liberal ones are shrinking and the fundamentalist ones are holding their own? I wonder if there are statistics that show this?
It also seems to me that those who call themselves "religion-less" might well be from the "developed" nations of the world. I don't see reports of masses of people in Buddhist or Hindu countries giving up their religious values.
Neither of these points really answers your questions, tho, Steve...and I think they are certainly worthy of being replied to.
Maybe one place to start would be to look back at writers and thinkers who didn't use religion in their search. Pascal? (I know he converted on his death-bed just to be sure, but he might count). Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning"? Others will come to mind, I'm sure.
Who was it that wrote that irratating little book, "Why Bad Things Happen To Good People"?? The answer that author gave wasn't religious either...his answer was, "Shit happens, and sometimes it happens to you and sometimes not...Go figure..."
Sorry, I am meandering...
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
It may be that the word "Religion" has triggered this point missing, but I see nothing to recommend religion. The statement that it is "The opium of the masses", apart from containing a massive pun, is a truism. Religion allows one to be desensitised to many real issues because "someone else" is responsible. In short "if I pray, God will provide".
Faith has no bearing on a behaviour either. It is a different matter entirely.
People place great virtues on a "religious way of life" without understanding that this has nothing to do with decent values. A religious way of life saw Christians beating the crap out of Muslims inthe Middle East, both in the name of their religion. It sees missionaries both destroying other cultures and in the past syphilising them by spreading (in this case) the Christian gospel and making forced conversions.
So, religion, per se, is a destroyer as well as, for the masses, a place of refuge. And faith is not a behaviour, it is "just" faith.
Truly decent behaviour actually comes in many ways from fear. "If I treat you badly, you may retaliate. And you are bigger than I am." Of course there are other sources, and I am not going to list them
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
robert bryce
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
|
|
|
so wrong...............rob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Yes you are Rob.....
I am sooooo happy to finally see you admit it....
Maybe there is hope for you yet....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
I love the rational thought you bring to the party, the reasoning, the rebuttal of elements of discussion with other elements.
Not for you the cheap shot nor the one liner dismissing everything with a short blow to the back of the neck. Instead you inspire us with whole thoughts, minutely constructed, carefull reasonaed, and get right to the heart of the matter incisively, with surgical precision.
A bewildering array of logic is presented to me here in those simple words you choose to use. Tyhe English chosen is such that I can understand not only each word, but every nuance of each word.
It was a tone poem as well as a fully reasoned refutation of all I had said. And it was not a little ironic, too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
For surely a sharper more incisive ming could not exist, not in a thousand generations.
I am in such awe.... Oh my, I find it hard to breathe. I feel as if I am in the presence of true greatness.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
from laughing to hard
 )
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If I read this correct, the original question was about the aternative sources of values in society when religeon is not the primary teacher of values. (Pointing to the 16%, 14% and 13% figures)
I believe it is the responsibility of the leaders of Nations to raise the level of debate on issues relating to values. At one time many members of society thought it was morally correct to own slaves. Their are many other issues we still need to work on.
My hope is that this happens much more than it does now. Without a civil war that is.
Just my thoughts.
Peace to all,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
robert bryce
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
|
|
|
I guess USA and God bashing are your strong points,it seems that you and marc have a great deal in common,love of GOD and country wont be found here.For the life of me I cannot understand why you defend that creaton and in the same breath besmirch my values.It does not make sense.What makes even less sense is respecting a person that has no spiritual concepts and has the gall to broadcast that.Prove me wrong!!!!!!.........rob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
You have no idea about by spiritual beliefs and even less about my patriotism.
It is just that simple.
Your infectous commentary concerning thought that runs in any direction other than your own particular monolinear train of thought is nothing but disruptive.
It is just that simple.
You seem to think that because people other than you might have the wherewithall to comment on a subject which runs contrary to your views is a direct and aimed attack on you. This is not the case.
It is just that simple.
I will continue to respond to your posts as I see fit.
It is just that simple.
Can you grasp this?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
robert bryce
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
|
|
|
I am so glad you posted,got so boored I decided to reread smiths story again.A delightful story simply awsome..Reading that story was the perfect antidote to the poison you bring to this board....Up to this moment,I never really appreciated the fantastic stories that are collected here--the perfect counterweight to such vile venom from a very sick person.As this is an open discussion I am not being combative here,merely making an observation....As I have rediscovered the joy of reading these stories,I will be spending less time here....What I have found in these and other stories though they may be fiction,is a strength and peace thats hard to define but they help to ease some of the pain.What is so obvious to me is that I SEE THE JOY IN LIVING that these authors bring to their works and they do that very well!!!!!!...These people serve a good purpose,they bring joy and light into a very dark world that seems stuffed with hurtful people...rob------------I wish you well
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
And it is so good to see you realize it too.....
Just what you realize? Hmmmmmm..... Well you know.....
Don't you....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
The concept of God and the concept of religion are totally divorced. The second is the product of people who decided to organise the first for their own personal gain. I have no need to prove you wrong. A rather bright gentleman names Jess already did thatin his dealings with the priesthood in his own time.
The concept of bashing the USA has arrived in your brain only. No-one else sees it except you. Here you the the only one marching in step.
robert bryce wrote:
> What makes even less sense is respecting a person that has no spiritual concepts and has the gall to broadcast that.
This is a disjointed statement from you that has no basis in fact. However, since you insist on some sort of a reply, the answer is that every person is worthy of respect. There is something about even the most difficult of people that is worthy of respect.
Your stridency in your posts, when you are strident, is alienating people here. You have accused people of being inintelligent and many other things. When you are helpful, when you are gentle, when you are a normal citzen, then you are appreciated. When you are strident and allow your many prejudices to shine through to your posts you cause chaos, pain and suffering.
You have no idea about the circumstances many people here find themselves in, but seem to feel that your own miltiary service and may pains and sufferings and humiliations give you an unparallelled right to have your voice heard above others, and for some reason for you to be "right" always, and to be unchallenged.
The only right you have is the same right as that of any other human being. No more than them and no less than them. You have no more right to have your voice and opinions heard than anyone else because you fought for your country. You have no more right because you have a particular religion (I have not said "faith" for all I see is use of religion to hurt othjer people who do not share yours). You have no more right because you are in the cirucmstances you are in. Yet you seek to make those and other things matters of grave importance to impress your will on other people.
If coming here is important to you, then behave properly. Behave with decoruj and generosity of spirit. Cease seeing everything you do not agree with as a personal attack on you and your beliefs, and show that you understand other people. Stop your ever present "pick, pick, pick" at things until you manage to unravel them. In short, be a gentleman.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
|
|
|
Enough is enough.
Learn to live in a society peacably and cease exhibiting venom here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
I don't know why the links didn't work: 
I am probably missing the point somewhat 
Re: I am probably missing the point somewhat 
Ok, here goes ... 
Re: You know, that's what I appreciate so much in your posts 
Re: Well you see.... Rob dahhhhhling...... 
You achieved it yourself by your actions 
Take your venom OFFLINE 
