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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Rob noted and asked as follows:
I sense a strong dislike for the church or organized religion. Why is this so if at all?
He then added:
When I form friendships of any kind I look for a commonality, some common ground conducive to mutual respect. Core beliefs play a huge role in establishing mutual respect.
I have space hsi thoughts into those paragraphs to make the thoughts a little more accessible. I trust, Rob, that you do not disapprove of that minor moderator's licence
I feel this is a worthy set of issues. It will have a different answer depending onthe nation or even the state you live in. For example, 67% of US Citizens attend church on a Sunday compared with 7% of UK citizens.
This is a topic for true discussion. It is not one for seeking to convert others to one's own view. Each "side" of such a discussion will always be right, you see. So the objective is to understand different views.
We must also recognise that there are different faiths here as well as different religions. And that no faith or no religion is the state for some people. We can do this without getting angry, without raised hackles and witout making those of one persuasion feel picked on by those of another. So let's do it. We have a huge wealth of brainpower, and of exerience here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Rob noted and asked as follows:
I sense a strong dislike for the church or organized religion. Why is this so if at all?
speaking for self, here goes.
my personal dislike for church/organised religions is both simple and complicated. the simple aspect is simply: i don't like forced dogmas. what i mean is, i find it startling and disheartening that people are baptised as babies, before they even know what it is they're being baptised into, what it means, what it's for, any of that. i get a lot of static because my daughter has not been baptised -- especially recently, as i've been chosen to be the "godmother" for my cousin's son. i feel that this should be a decision made by the child when they're old enough to understand (i say that loosely; some are adults and still don't understand, fully, the aspects of their religion). another simple reason: i have a hard time executing blind faith. that is, blind faith to the point the catholic church demands one have (i was baptised catholic, so my experiences are based off this). if ever a person questions, well .. it's been my experience you simply cannot question. it's gods will, the bible says so, any combination of these.
the more complicated reasons stem from certain hypocracies. again, this may apply to all religions, but i'm only talking from my experience. referencing timmy's statement about purple paint? well, there you go.
i myself am somewhere between pagan and agnostic. i believe there's some higher power out there, that we'll have to answer to one day. but, i believe that power extends beyond church walls and a large, hard to read and follow book. i believe that "god" is actually several things; a god and a goddess, the sun and moon, rocks and water and the air we breathe. i believe that a person shouldn't have to be told what's right and wrong; or, moreather, they should not have right and wrong 'scared' into them. but i also allow myself to question. question everything, and that is where the agnostic aspect comes in. i don't know for sure that what i believe is right. i have no proof that the catholic religion is the end-all-be-all to everything, like they think. how do i know islam isn't the end-all-be-all? or paganism (which please please, is not a "bad" religion; i was nearly driven to tears having to defend myself in my anthropology class this summer!), or buddism? we just don't know. we have to believe and have faith, and i can have that, but only so far. and i don't like that certain organised religions/chruches EXPECT people to follow this or else. do this or you perish in hell forever.
i could get into my belief that there are seven levels to "heaven" just as there are "hell" (if you believe/have read dante's inferno) but that is wandering off topic. i'm basically a belief melting pot, but want to be ALLOWED to be that.
erm. haha! sorry so long.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I don't begin the conversation by saying "Hello, I'm Marc the Gay non practicing roman catholic, exparimenting with various theologies and religions...... and so on.....
I'm sorry.... But I don't ask a new friend if they are of the right religion or who they sleep with..... Either....
Things of a more personal nature such as this become apparent only with gained and nurtured trust..... and alot of time....
It matters not what religion people have.... or even if they are non-believers.... It is the person I want to know.... And if he/she is good, honest, forthright.... then all is well in the universe....
Or at least my little corner of it....
But when someone uses his religion as leverage to foster beliefs which are contrary to what I hold as reasonable.... Then the line has been crossed.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Well, how coudl it be anyting else?
In the UK we have had wars over religion and the church. Internal wars. We had Henry VII: RC; Henry VIII RC until he was not allowed a divorce, and then declared independence; Edward II (no idea,and too young); Mary: RC and burned protestants alive; Elizabeth I; Protestant and burned RCs alive.
Note that this was for religion and not for faith.
We have Northern Ireland where religion divides and causes violence. Church and religion, not faith.
In Glasgow there are football teams, one protestant, one RC. Vicious rivalry.
A client (an O'Reilly) was wary last week of our designer (an O'Leary). "That's a NROTHERN Irish name....... RC vs Protestant.
In Slough Sikh and Muslim youth form gangs and fight each other in the name of religion.
Our churches in times of war claim that "God is on our side". Between 1939 and 1945 God was also on the side of the enemy. The same God, subverted by religion.
In the name of religion, during The Crusades, the English army invaded the Middle East and fought the Muslims "In Christ's name". For religion, not for faith.
So, historically I have chalenges with organised religion.
I was raised to attend a school chapel service each morning and a full chapel service in a Sunday. I saw cant and hypocrisy, and lost what remained of my faith. I refused to confirm my faith for it had gone, and I saw no meaning to religion, for, "in God's name" it destroyed.
I rejected then and reject now religion, and I reject the church, the berobed figures, the bells and smells the worship of idolatry, virgin birth and all the trappings of religion. I reject any attempt by a priesthjood to control what I believe. The Bible was a banned book in England once it had been translated from Latin/Greek, since the texts in it were then out of the control of the state (the priests are state appointed), and real peole could see whathad beenhitherto protected by being in Latin/Greek.
I do not worship.
Instead I pray.
My core values are on my sleeve for all to see, and yet they are private too. I do not require a bulding with officials to teach me how to pray or how to act. I know how to do each. Ritual chants are for the people who require them, not for me. And the ritual encourages obedience to an earthly control, not a higher power.
A highly personal view, not set out as a shot at anyone, nor as an argument. It is likely that it will offend a person who is deeply religious, but not one who has a deep faith. A paradox, and the offence is not intended, and yet it is also unavoidable if I am to speak the truth about the things in which I believe and about the things I reject. So I have tried to set it out as unemotinally as I can, and if I have offended I apologise before all in which I believe.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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a quote from the movie "stigmata," also believed to be part of rare scroll whose existance was denied by the Vatican:
The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there.
i always liked that, and it seems like a lot could be smoothed, if only.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The vatacan denies many many books.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Who is fostering their beliefs on anyone..What was asked and mentioned was if THAT SOMEONE had ANY beliefs to start with and just plain decent people dont chew around the edges of another person for their jollies!!!..rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This thread has so much potential to raise hackles that everyone has to play nice.
I dontp; expect direct criticisms ofothers in it. The vbiews expressed will be very personal. By all means ask for clarification, but that is as far as one can go here.
Well reasoned views are required. no more and no less.
They need not be long, but they do need to be well expressed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I don't understand why we look inside boxes and put inside a box that which I see as unbounded or bound by our feable imaginations.
Now it's been a while since I attended bible study so I could use some help on this. I seem to remember a passage somewhere in which one of the patriaches in genesis wrestled with a celestial being (God?)over the erection of a stone as a place of worship. The objection to this being that God did not dwell in a stone but in the hearts of human kind, it seems to me there was mention of there also being no need for priest or kings either.
Another thing that has always bothered me is why do we seek other people if we want to find God, I mean if I am right about the passage I mentioned it would seem that The Great spirit is inclusive not exclusive.
Truth at best is always subjective and even more here. Are there immutable truths? I think I see some but here again that is subjective.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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In the UK we have had wars over religion and the church. Internal wars. We had Henry VII: RC; Henry VIII RC until he was not allowed a divorce, and then declared independence; Edward II (no idea,and too young); Mary: RC and burned protestants alive; Elizabeth I; Protestant and burned RCs alive.
Edward II would have loved this message board. He was one of us. He lost his throne (and his life) because of the favours he showered on his b/f Piers Gaveston. (He died a very gruesome death at the hands of a group of his barons: a red hot poker was stuffed up... well, I'll leave you to finish that one.) Christopher Marlowe - a contemporary of Shakespeare and also one of us - wrote a wonderful play about Edward II.
However, if you meant the son of Henry VIII then you meant Edward VI (what are 4 digits between friends?) He was rabidly protestant and died very young.
Sorry to be so pedantic. You know I love you.
 )
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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of course I meant the VI!
It was via a cow horn. The king's Body must not be allowed to show a wound. But we digress.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I believe everyone has the right to his or her own beliefs. Yours are as valid as mine.
Core values, seems to beg the question: Do we require religion to supply our values? Or is it possible to have values despite a lack of religion in your life?
I think some require it and some don't. Many good and kind people in this world do not go to church. And others go every week.
Both sets of people have values. And both sets of people have value.
Cherish them all.
As for 'dislike', I disagree but will let that go.
Peace and Love,
And may God bless you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thumps the bible, saying that my views or opinions are bad just becaues they conflict with their views....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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WHAT values?...Describe please....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I just Knew that some would fall into my carefully laid trap when I mentioned CORE VALUES...Core means intrinsic or center,as in the center of the earth.A tiny child,most believe,is born with certain instincts.Some will call this as being a conscience...Now I must return to earth...rob
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I walked into that with my eyes wide open. I just think some people are good and some not. You need only look to the headlines to see bad people in both areas.
We need to look a bit harder for the good ones.
Live and Love, (for JAMS as well since he mixes em sometimes .... hehe)
Levin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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A solution if I may be so bold to offer is to substitute MECHANISM for religion...Afterall religion is simply the mechanics that people employ in reverence to whatever deity they worship..Why the anger at someone that values a love of GOD and faith??????????....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Girl--you make good sense. Every post you have made is a delight to read..Very refreshing..the outlook that you present on this board is astonishing...Stick around kiddo this place NEEDS you!!!!!!..rob
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No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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read carefully (all) posts
[the word (all) replaces the name that was posted here previously. The message is better directed at all people than at one, and that one perosn took reasonable offence at being named, so I editted it out - timmy]
[Updated on: Fri, 19 September 2003 13:45] by Moderator |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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timmy wrote:
> This is a topic for true discussion. It is not one for seeking to convert others to one's own view. Each "side" of such a discussion will always be right, you see. So the objective is to understand different views.
>
> We must also recognise that there are different faiths here as well as different religions. And that no faith or no religion is the state for some people. We can do this without getting angry, without raised hackles and witout making those of one persuasion feel picked on by those of another. So let's do it. We have a huge wealth of brainpower, and of exerience here.
I am registering some exasperation here. I said right at the start that no-one had the monopoly on being right, and yet I am starting to see "points scoring behaviours".
I am not keen on references to bible thumping, to traps and the like, nor am I keen on triumphalism and self hugging. There is nothing to be smug about in having a faith. It is to give one's self inner comfort that one has it, or to explain otherwise bewildering phenomomena. I am not right and you wrong, nor you right and I wrong.
So, again, play nice. Prove to me that you can discuss an adult topic as adults, whatever age you are, and whatever your convictions about deities or lack thereof.
If I break your skull with a cricket bat I see your brains spill out, but I do not understand what is inside your head. So put the weapons down and grow up, all those who fight.:'-(
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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We will drop this now ..... I will not provoke mor name calling.... the end
Thank you
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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PLease think both of the example set and the audience's perception. I make this post here not to single out any one perosn but to single out any and all such instances.
The post above is simply an example of posts that have no place here. I iintend to flag all such posts. I hit this one first.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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wow, thank you rob; very, very much.  i hope you had a happy day today.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You see, it is the very mechanistic ritual that turned me away from my faith.
I met people who declared the bible to be "inerrant" and thus fooled themselves into believing that mistranslations were verbatim correct. A trivial example (!) is the parting of the "Red" sea - a feat which would have required an inordinate quantyity of "deity power", when it was another, shallower, marshy "sea" that was crossed, needing minimal deity power and maximal local knowledge of routes and tides. Anyone caught in Morecambe bay too far from the shore at low tide will know that even a galloping horse cannot outrun the swelling tide.
This is simply an example. But such examples showed me that peole were gullible and easily parted from their money in support of a priesthood that was at best ill educated, and at worst practiced sophistry on a grand scale.
It seemed to me that either no deity could exist that allowed such things, or that the deity had a sense of humour and perpetuated a huge practical joke on the priesthood of judaic and christian faiths. In either case, at that point in my life, I wanted nothing to do with such a deity.
Because of that I still do not attend centres of worship, and choose my own prayers.
Most important, if I am mistaken, then the god in whom I believe will have infnite patience to talk this through with me at the right time.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Mechanics was simply a term.ie the operation of a engine--The mechanics (way) or a process of doing something....rob used a ten letter word and all jumped on him....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Doesn't matter how many letters it has or how few. It was precisely that ritual that maded me aware theat religion is not a good thing.
The higher ranking the cleric the finer his robes. Yet surely they should become simpler as his rank rises?
I don't think anyone jumped on you. There is nothing personal in this, surely?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Sweetheart YOU have made my day.Even with all the turmoil in your life you can still be cheerful and bright and lift a persons spirits--not by your pain,but by your boundles spirit.Found me a new site ,American western lore.Very family intensive,but sure interesting.Young orphen boys growing into manhood,young ladies growing into womenhood too.I bet the American fronteer was exciting,but it was cruel too.The treatment of orphens in the US is not a pretty story....HUGS...rob
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Peace to all.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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This is your board Timmy and I guess your word should be law but on that last response I would have added (this is only my opinion).You made it sound like religion is bad for all....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The word used was "view"
View essentially is a matter of perspective.....
Example... You are at one side of a room.... I at the other.... If we are both looking at the same object.... we both will see things differently.... We still see the same object but to each it is different.
The same rules apply to concepts.... you look at an issue with your knowledge and experiences which allow you to evaluate the concept... However, my knowledge and experiences vary from yours and because of that the concept may hold a different meaning to me as it does to you.
No one is right... and no one is wrong.... it all.... just is
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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No Message Body
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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robert bryce wrote:
> This is your board Timmy and I guess your word should be law but on that last response I would have added (this is only my opinion).You made it sound like religion is bad for all....rob
It seems hardly necessaryu to do that. You see I am posting my opinion, as are you. I might argue with legitmacy that all posters should post "This is only my opinion"
But, having read the words you want, I will not use them. It is not "only" my opinion. It is my opinion. I express it clearly, and in a manner designed both to show my reasoning, and to show that the opinion is mine, and is personal.
From the evidence of my eyes and my ears, religion is bad for all. Note, please, that I have not said a thing about faith. I ap speaking about religion, no more and no less. And religion, as you have said so clearly is the mechanistic ritual of public expression of a faith which may or may not lie underneath. This italics are my words not yours, and those without italics are the words that you have used translated into the words I use.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Values are a learned trait. They are instilled by family as well as other influences as a childs circle of experiences begin to grow. Other influences are teachers, friends and their parents, religous leaders as well as public figures of authority.
Granted when a child is born he/she responds to the gentle cooing of the mother and father.... This apparently to the child is a good thing because the chile smiles.... Hence love....
The consciense is a concepy brought about by authority figures of all the categories mentioned above. It is the persons ability to weigh the pros and cons of right and wrong actions and behaviors.
On a sociological level, there is a wide diffential as to what is considered right and wrong according to the culture in which you are raised. What might be considered wrong in one culture might be considered an act of utmost heroism in another.
For instance, Here in the United States of America, it is illegal, immoral, and just plain considered to be in bad taste to participate in canabalism. On the other hand, in remote locals of Papua New Guinea there are some tribes that consider it acceptable to devour an enemy after he has been defeated.
These two opposing views of the same general concept are accepted in both areas.
Now is it right for a missionary to enter the tribe of New Guinea natives and summarilly condemn them for practicing canabalism?
I know my example was a bit extreem, but it is an extreem world in which we live. I needed an example that all persons with good consciense would agree that here it is considered wrong.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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You stand up for what you believe without degrading anyones opinion. You stated your views, and no one was "bashed" so to speak.
You and I don't always agree (though I agree with you here), but I respect your right to your views. As well as your 'free speech' right to express those views.
I believe we as a planet should stand by free speech as a natural law.
Only in my idealistic head so far.
Much love to you every day of your life,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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and i see a lot of very good people in the newspapers too just like here.we just have to learn to agree to disagree.I respect a person that has well thought out opinions and the life experience to support those views...rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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robert bryce wrote:
> and i see a lot of very good people in the newspapers too just like here.we just have to learn to agree to disagree.I respect a person that has well thought out opinions and the life experience to support those views...rob
How about a child, with no experience worth a candle, and opinions that are yet to be formed?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Even little kids can think just ask any young parent and you can bet the farm that their testing the parents limits all the time.Good effective and loving parents SHARE their values with their kids cause thats the right thing to do....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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And the good and loving parent who is bigotted against a segment of society and passes that bigotry in a caring and loving way to their child as a value that "all decent people share". What of that parent?
And we come back then to the original question at the top of the entire thread.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But everyone has beliefs. It is impossible not to. Even is one does not believe they have to believe that they dont believe so invariably a nonbeliever believes.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Church, Religion, Faith, Core Values. 
Re: When I meet someone........ 
Re: Church, Religion, Faith, Core Values. 
Sorry but .... 
Re: Church, Religion, Faith, Core Values. 
Spilled brains do not allow understanding 
*wholly bewildered* 
I am sorry Timmy ..... I did not mean to accuse anyone ... 
