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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I sure would like for someone to explain Jordys fathers attitude..I cannot understand how a man or father could be so blind.Please give this some thought....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Jordy lives in smalltown redneck USA, where everyine knows everyone else. Itls a one horse town, dominated by a huge and fierce sectarian church.
And that church preaches against perversion, paedophiles, ho-mo-sex-shules, unmarried mothers, and doe sit in an evila and fiery manner each Sunday and some evenings in between.
Ho-mo-...... are damend to burn in hell for ever, even if the come forward now and testify against their own sn, for they are unclean and unforgivable and unforgiven. Even, I say, even if they come forward now and testify here, in front of this congregantion and this altar, they will still burn.
And Jordy's father was raised inthis narrow minded, bigotted and "safe" community and lives inside its rules as a team player, and a pillar of the small society.
His income depends on being seen to be a church member, and being seento be correct and religious and obeying the local interpretation of his religion. He is safe in the knowledge that hsi is srtriving for perfection and is right.
And then Jordy, his son, whom he never loved well enough, and about which he already feels guilt, is one of those perverts, is a ho-mo-sex-shule. And is prfeached against each sunday. Maybe Jordy's father even was a guest preacher who railed against pervwersion and immoral and unclean acts and thoughts. And then the boiy comes home with a son, a bastard!
God will strike the father down for associating with such a perosn, let alone acknowledging love for his own son.
The man is torn apart.
He cannot show love, and yet he wants to. His religious zeal is greater, for now, than the love for his child. And he is in pain. But no-one must see hsi hurt, because he is a man in the deep South, where men do not weep, and are red blooded and heterosexual.
And he is dying inside.
Or so I read the tale.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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nice GENTLE reply Timmy.....r
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I cannot fathom this at all. You ask what is going on in the mind of a man who is a character in a passionate story. The man is not portrayed in any gentle manner, nor is the way he treats his son. And thus the answer was passionate, for the story creates that passion.
When you receive a reply which is an interpretive view of the story you love, then you make a sarcastic remark. I presume from that you posed the original question for a reason other than to gain information, though that eludes me as a motive.
Now, in my view that is an unlovely behaviour, which is hurtful, and whcih I would prefer you exhibit to no-one. It demeans you as the person making the remark, and creates the environment here which has been stated as being not what is required.
Behaving in this way makes people fear to post lest they receive a hurtful remark, and it is not a behaviour I will tolerate much longer.
I tolerate such things for a while because they are usually the cries of a person in pain, who needs help but is often unable to ask for the help he needs. There comes a point when the cries do not diminish however much opportunity the issuer is given to address the unacceptable behaviours or plainly and simply to ask for the help required.
smith asked how to return the place to how it once was. I am, at present, unsiure how to answer him.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have known people much worse than that. I have known of a father that threw his son out at age 10. He also used his religious beliefs to justify a horrible treatment of his own offspring.
Remember, the bible speaks of slaves as if that is OK. I am sure back in that day it was. We know better now, don't we?
But I digress.
We can only hope for his growing in the story, but we are not the author. And he is doing an absolutely great job without our help.
Thanks Jams, your the best,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Somewhere along the line, these so-called "Christian" churches allowed their phobias, fears and bigotry to replace the teachings which they claim their churches were founded on.
If Jesus were around today, I can't help but think that he would have made Jordan and his father (or two people like them) into one of his parables. On one hand is Jordan: a most generously caring and giving young man who falls in love with somebody equally caring and giving, and yet is still willing to sacrifice his happiness with that person in order to help a mutual close friend in trouble; on the other hand is Jordan's father, who has allowed his church to demand he put fealty to it over the needs of his son through their phobic characterizations of that love as being perverse and that care as being sinful. And yet, even while that hatred prevents the father from doing so, the son is still able to tell him, "I love you." I can just hear it now: "Amen! Amen! I say unto you: which of these truly knows God's love and shall know the Kingdom of Heaven?"
The First Self-Righteous Church of Redneck USA remind me of the Pharisees and Saduceess and all the rest of those hypocritical breast-beaters who were in charge of organized religion back then (and who Jesus held in highest derision): through their continued bastardized teachings and acts, they crucify Jesus all over again.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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No Message Body
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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reread your reply timmy,I was really trying to understand this fathers mind set and you got to admit your answer was not too informative..It was a serious question and I was really looking for answers ...rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Thanks Ron,I am reading some stories about the American western fronteer and how some so-called christian chatities treated orphens and I have to agree that a lot of those early christian people were pretty messed up in their thinking.The history of how our child-labor laws were developed is truely interesting....rob
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Assumptions you have made about posters and their motives underlie many of the comments you make in this forum. From my personal knowledge of the people concerned I can state quite categorically that most of your assumptions are incorrect - about me, about Timmy and about others.
In the case of what makes Jordy's father tick, Timmy's response to you was so close to real and actual life that it hurts.
Please, Robert, in future judge us all more kindly: we are not your mortal enemies, we do not plan to tear down all your personal values, and we most certainly are not judgmental.
With the greatest of respect,
Steve
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..and i've been trying to stay out of the touchier things, and almost-fights and heated-things around here, as i promised kevin i would.
that said, all i'll say is this: i understand why rob would want to dig a little deeper on the reasoning behind the father in the story, but .. i fully and wholly agree (and even kin to certain parts) of the explanations that have come up. i'm unsure as to why it's gotten so bad, so fast.
however .. can we please consider the feelings of the author? i realise content of stories and other writings are fair game to come up for discussions or debates, and i don't think there's anything wrong with that. but if it were me, or, what if it was any one of you? how do you think it would feel if a thread concerning a piece of your writing, your self, turned into something so precarious?
for all that smith asked and brought up in the thread "have something to say," i'm a bit saddened that a topic concerning his story has turned so heated. i'm starting to see why people have shied away or gone a bit quiet, given it's taken me an hour to even work up the nerve to post this, and i feel like i'll have made several people angry, sticking my nose where it shouldn't go, and averting from the topic at hand.
so to all those in this particular stint, i'm very sorry if i upset you. i just couldn't sit by.
tail between her legs and backing off,
h.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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because of my therapist,I still have contacts with University of Tamps staff and have their opinion of timmys post and reply to robs question.As these learned men have no bias and have studied the post and its contents and context,They have formed an opinion that is best not mentioned here.I might add that other posts were also studied and conclusions drawn..The reference to rednecksvill USA,the exagersted spelling of homosesual and the general toning of that response clearly indicated that ABSOLUTELY NO ATTEMPT was offered to answer robs legitimate question but an effort to turn that honest question into a joke.....rob
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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All this about learned men in some university forming opinions about what is posted on this Message Board sounds to me to be very spurious at best and a desperate attempt to threaten me at worst. Luckily, I'm not buying any of it! If it is the case Robert must supply the names of these illustrious people and their emails, phone numbers or addresses so that I can challenge them, rebutt them and demonstrate to them their utter incomprehension. As it is, I prefer to think of them as products of Robert's fertile imagination.
I have written this, against my first judgement, in order that no one on this Message Board feel that it is no longer safe to post here.
Robert, it is time for you and us to consider really hard whether this is the most suitable forum for you to express your opinions in the manner which you do. I shall not leave this Message Board, come what may. But I think that it would be beneficial for all if you did.
I shall be away this weekend, so I shall probably not be able to read any of the responses that there may be to this post, because of time differences.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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So, let me summarise:- The town is small
- The church is All Powerful (I like Ron's name for the sect!)
- The father has been brought up to be small minded and bigotted
- The church reninforces the bigotry on a daily basis
- Without membership of the church, the father is nothing
- Only church members prosper in that town
- The church, posoisbly even the father, preaches against homosexuality and any form of sinfulness. It even equates homosexuality with paedophilia (which should be pederasty, but we'll let that one go)
- The fatyher regrest not loving his living son more than his dead son, and grieves for each
- He cannot show his love
- he wants so much to be loved by his community and by his son
- he is torn asunder by his son's "behaviour" which is against all he was ever taught - his belief system is so strong, yet his mind is in tatters
- he hates homosexuality. He can't help it. He was brought up to do this. It never crosses his mind that his son was brought up the same way and probably hates it too.
All of these are reasons separately and together for his seemingly irrational and unloving behaviour.
Now I said all this before. Regrettably this post is the exam questin answer from a literature paper, and does neither the story nor the question a good service, for the story is emotional. It creates hope, terror, grief, love, all of these in abundance. This answer creates none of those, since it is clinical.
The father is not a jerk. He is by no means blameless, but he is a good man in all except his ability to see through cant and dogma and recognise love and need. He may learn, he may not, that is for the author to weave for us. The man behaves like a total jerk, but his behaviour is that "expected" by his church and his peers, even though it is his own son he is disowning. But he did come to the graduation. SO there is hope, however slim.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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no need to worry steve,your posts are rational and do not attempt to hurt and i am not a threat to you.Showing these posts to others was an attempt on my part to see If i was totally at fault..Passive aggressive would be the best way to describe my actions,I respond to percieved insults and in truth,my anger is real and it seems dirrectrd at one person.I assure you that I am really working on that problem..I dont think your giving me a fair shake here,perhaps I am quick to respond,but that does not give you the right to try to hurt me,after all,my problem is with only one person and I am working on that...BTW I am short with timmy because he aids and abets this persons actions then turns around telling me to play nice when I am past the point of endurance.....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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And again you see the difference between religion and faith.
A Christian is exhorted to "love thy neighbour as thyself", and yet the priesthood, "in Christ's name" persecute and have me persecute my neighbour if he is outside their morality.
These are not early christians. Christ was born 1,700 years or so before their acts, and 2,000 years before current sects persecute those who are different on a daily basis. Which is, in so many ways, the point of smith's tale.
Don't get the idea that he is attacking faith, though. His is as strong as anyone I have met. He simply eschews the religious sect he was raised in.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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There is also a difference between being a literary critic (we are not doing that) and talking about the issues that a tale raises in our minds (that we are doing).
And you have rights, as many and as few as any of us
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Tampa. Not a million miles from the environment where Jordy's father was raised in geography, but a century away in the way of life.
To understand Jordy's father you have to suspend disbelief and learn about "micro-town USA".
As do the alleged learned professionals you have spoken to.
I have learnt about it, and it horrifies me. And it is real.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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now that was one fantastic post and really answered a lot of my questions without pulling my tailfeathers..I have just learned a lot more from that post than from your first post on this thread....rob----well said----
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It was no different from the earlier one. Except it was clinical. Each fact in it is contained in the earlier one, or near enough. Each fact in the earlier one is contained it it, or near enough. Each post is as controversial or as non controversial as the other, or near enough. And each post will be seen by your psychobabble friends as identical, or near enough.
So you achieved again the creation of mayhem from something simple. You asked a valid question, received a valid answer and chose to react oddly to it. You receive the same answer in clinical language and react differently to it. Note, again, that it is behaviour that I am commenting on. Behind that unusual behaviour is a very sweet man. We glimpse him, but are never allowed to see him.
There is, in another thread, a very clear post addressed to you, timestaped a little earlier than this one. It is at http://forum.iomfats.org/w-agora/index.php?site=forumiomfatsorg&bn=forumiomfatsorg_placeofsafety&key=1063955818&action=view and expresses very clearly what must happen.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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smith has expressed a valid wish that it be considered for deletion. I am considering it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Re: I think I can 
inappropriate behaviour 
Excellent answer Timmy ..... 
Re: This is nonsense! 
This thread is now locked 
