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Thinking back to my earlier post about messes, I find myself confronted with one. One that kinda started and stops and started again here.
The particulars aren't anyones business save those involved, and, well, to be honest, I personally can't do anything to prevent it from happening further.
I just kinda wonder sometimes about a lot of things that happen, with the best of intentions sometimes, but forgetting that actions, even seemingly benign ones, have consequences.
And consequently, there are times when all the facts aren't known, and all the truths far from fully explained. Advice is a wonderful thing, and easily given at times. It's what this MB was founded on, and what those of us that post here regularly offer each other and those that come here seeking need.
And yet we neglect, denigrate and often injure our own at the consequence of those that we think we are helping. So without asking for anything more than what this place claims to be, I put out this plea.
Someone vital to this place has been making things tougher for someone else by trying to help someone else yet instead of helping, it's making things worse all around. This person needs serious help, help that this person wont admit to needing. Help that people around this person in real life were going to try to get started, yet now this person has been alerted by well meaning advice. Well meaning, yet without the full story, and so, at a basic level, flawed.
The top of the this MB, it says that advice should be given from the perspective of those seeking help. Maybe we should also consider the consequences. Not just to the person asking for advice, but for those around them as well.
Sometimes the best advice is to leave well enough alone, as well. Some people tell you what you want to hear, what they want to hear back, and what they want to believe more than anything. Occassionally, even with the best of intentions, we should look below the surface, look into what IS more than what Appears to be. We need to consider all sides, not just what lines we get fed.
An old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Let's not let our good intentions continue to put one of our own down twenty miles of bad road because one that isnt' our own is missleading. Because if we do, then this ceases to be a place of safety and becomes a place of torment. Let's get back to basics and realize that advice is something that some people take to heart, and may take to extremes.
Just things to think about. And to remember. We aren't perfect. We aren't all honorable on the net. And we aren't always what we appear to be. Being social and conscientious and empathic is endemic to who we are at times, but a little caution is always advisible.
Think about it.
D'Artagnon
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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i sure don't know what this is about, but i can understand your point, how precarious advice giving really can be. we could be certified psychiatrists, and STILL have to be careful about giving it out. we could be just regular joe's and jane's who have experienced the same thing that comes up/is asked about, and STILL have to be careful.
so even though i'm not sure what this is about, i DO want to say that i hope advice i've given here and there, hasn't harmed anyone, or anyone else around them..
h.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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Another part of the problem may well be that the person giving well-meaning advice quite often has not got the whole picture, and doesn't even know it because there are so many secrets and rumours on the Net.
I'm not really sure how anybody can really avoid problems like this one sometimes...
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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party on dudes,let them eat cake and we eat steak!!!!!!..rob..........
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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As the person who is in the middle of all of this I would say that the facts behind this can not and should not become public. There is a siomple way of stating it, however, without making life challenging for either party.
The overall issue is simple. The facts behind it are complex. One person here feels persecuted by another person here. Note that only the parties involved know whether the persecution is taking place. No-one else can know it.
The person who feels persecuted has a plan to get the person they feel to be persecuting them help. To me the plan stinks. It looks more like lynch law than a real plan to get someone help. Mandatory help tends to involve commitment in mental institutions. Forced commitment.
So, I have been talking to each. If I ever advise a person of anyuthing taking into account "those around them as well", then I have not given a service to the person I am advising. Certainly I have been talking to the person felt to be persecuting and suggesting modifications to behaviour to avoid the other person's interpretation of behaviour as persecution.
The other person simply stands there and keeps repeating "Poor me! You don't think of me. Me, me, me, me". And does not understand that "Me" is not what it's about.
I should turn the headng of "Interference" back on the "poor me" person. Because the 'help' proposed is similar to going to someone's parents and saying "Little Alfie is gay. He needs some help. Get him cured." Very similar.
Do I know all the facts? No. Not a hope.
Do I have a chance of helping each person? A chance, yes.
Is one persecuting the other? I have no idea. Nor do I care. What I care about is showing each how to deal with the other. And how to deal with themselves.
Will I ever stand by and watch someone get lynched? Do I really need to answer that question?
Is there hope for both parties? If they start to listen to what is going on, leave the ego out of the thoughts and learn either to coexist or to ignore each other, then yes. SO far one is listening, or starting to listen. The other is lobbying all known frineds to tell me not to help at all because the other person needs help. I've had it by email, by IM, and now here.
So. The person needs help. But may not receive it. And instead must be lynched. Yes, that works well. No-one needs to know all the facts to prevent a lynching.
And the top of this board. Actually each person came to me for help. Each is getting advice from their own perspective. It's just that the allegedly persecuted one refuses to listen. The allegedly persecuting one is listening. And has committed to me to act. But I refuse to say how they will act nor what the commitment is.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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One can only seek to unravel facts from often complex statements about what the facts are perceived to be. Equally, in your professional practice, you will have had experience of sometimes having to help both parties in a dispute where each presenst cogent facts in an entirely convincing way.
A slogan on the Library wall at the University of Birmingham in the early 1970s said "Seek truth from facts to serve the people." An oddly Maoist slogan, but true here too. Inside the facts lies the truth. It could be the facts presented by either party, or by neother party, or lie between the presentations.
But that does not matter either, does it? Because what matters is helping the people to understand how to deal with the facts they present. The absolute truth is almost entirely irrelevant.
And how often does a problem resolve itself once the self image of the people with the problem is corrected?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This is puerile behaviour. I have no idea what is in your mind seeking to deface a serious topic, but I insist you desist from it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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two things, then I wont make any further noise about this.
One, the issue only grazes the gay issue, but is not a direct aspect of it.
Two, when the friends and family of one person gather together to confront someone about their problem, it's called an intervention. Even setting up an intervention is a serious matter and often the last act that people can take to get someone some help.
Describing things as a lynch mob is inflamatory and an act of desperation. I thought we weren't supposed to go there.
Goodby my friends. It has been fun. But to quote Pink Floyd...."The time is gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say."
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This alleged intervention looks very much like "Damn, this person is pissing me off. Now what can I do for me? I know, we'll get them some help."
Not "I'll help them", but "I'll find someone else to do it." They have talked about having this person committed, "hoping it would not come to that." They are not gathering together to confront. They are reporting the person to their parents in the hope that they can be medicated out of the way. And you want me to stand by and applaud this abhorrent behaviour? Not a chance. "Alfie is gay. Get him cured." is the self same thing.
That is not what humanity is about. That is what true selfishness is about instead. Get rid of the problem. Hide it indoors.
They have no idea of the family background of their supposed friend, so may be delivering them to wolves or angels. They neither know nor are interested. All they want is to be rid.
And the public declaration is not exactly helpful. Imagine being either party?
Decribing it as a lynch mob is an accurate description. Lynch mobs are "concerned groups of people out to do the right thing" as well.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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This is a very cryptic thread. It seems to speak to the issue of attempting to help someone with advice. Isn't it better to try than to just turn your back on someone in need?
Please forgive me if I am way off, I have no idea the specific issues your speaking of. So if I am out in left field, just ignore me.
Anyway, I hope the folks involved get things sorted out for themseves whatever the problem is.
Best of luck,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Interference 
Re: Interference 
Re: Interference 
