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I've been wondering, which is the most correct (if any):
United Kingdom
...or:
Great Britain
One of life's great mysteries, innit? 
-Lenny Valentin
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
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Well, I'm English
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mihangel
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One of life's great mysteries indeed. The formal name of the nation is 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Northern Ireland is self-explanatory. Great Britain is the largest of the islands plus most (but not all: see below) of its offshore islands from Scilly to Shetland, and is made up of England, Wales and Scotland. Thus Welshmen and Scots are liable to be offended if you call them English. British, yes.
Although Great Britain does not include Northern Ireland, 'Britain' and 'British' are often applied loosely to the whole nation, but the official short title of the whole thing, such as you see for instance in the label on the desk in the UN, is 'United Kingdom'.
Just to simplify matters, the other offshore islands (Isle of Man, Channel Islands) are not part of the United Kingdom, and therefore not represented in Parliament, but are self-governing Crown dependencies. Nor are they members of the European Community, for reasons I don't fully understand - tax avoidance? (Cossie, please help!).
Easy, isn't it?
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Very nicely explained...
So, where does Gibraltar fit into all this then?
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
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Historically Gibraltar has been owned by EVERYONE except Spain! who have never owned it!
Spain, of course, owns two such cities in Morocco
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mihangel
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Hate to say it, but Tim's wrong. Gibraltar _was_ Spanish until Britain captured it in the War of Spanish Succession in 1704. By the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 Spain ceded it to Britain in perpetuity. Thus it became a colony, and Spain has been trying to get it back ever since. The British government, understandably wanting to tidy up the odds and ends left over from the empire, are now talking about giving it back, or at least making it a Spanish/British condominium. Trouble is, the Gibraltarians, almost to a man/woman, want nothing to do with Spain. At the last referendum on the matter (1967) the vote was 12,130 to 44 in favour of staying with Britain. Difficult.
But Tim is right, of course, about Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco, opposite Gibraltar, which have been Spanish possessions since (I think) 1492, and Spain shows no interest in giving them up. There is a difference in that they're constitutionally part of Spain, i.e. are represented in the Spanish parliament, whereas Gibraltar's not part of Britain.
(Note the use of 'Britain' in all the above. Should strictly be UK!)
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
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This may sound strange, but I am not sure that Gibraltar was ever Spain's to cede!
Now I base my information on the word of mouth of a Hispanophile who used to work for me, so it isnot chaoter and verse, but his comments were that even the French owned it, but never the Spanish. The Moors, sure, but not the Spanish.
I am content to be proven wrong!
Are we the only two here to use the word "cede"?
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Some cool info coming from all over the place, thanks guys...
About 'cede', I could of course look it up in my dictionary, I've always thought the word was 'secede'. Otoh, the English language is so rich in words, I constantly learn new ones it seems.
Is one an older form of the other?
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
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"cede" comes from the Latin whose precise spelling I forget but is probably cedo (cedere cecidi caesum I think), a 3rd conjugation irregular verb, meaning "yield" Secede is likely to come from Se (reflexive pronoun) together with cedo and thus means "to yield one's self" if the purest definition is required
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No Message Body
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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mihangel
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Hmmm. Can't give you more than 50%, Tim.
You're confusing cedo with caedo (caedere cecidi caesum), to beat. Cedo (cedere cessi cessum) means either (intransitive) to move, go along, as in the compound 'proceed', 'procession', or (transitive) to yield, give up.
Secedo: the se- is not the reflexive pronoun but a prefix meaning 'apart' or 'away' (as in 'select', 'seclude'). So secede = move away, withdraw.
Well, on second thoughts perhaps I'll bump the mark up to 57% for a valiant effort.
The Scholar
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mihangel
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I fear you're still wrong, Tim. I've just checked on the Gib government website (www.gibraltar.gov.gi) which has a nice overview of the Rock's history. The Spaniards captured it from the Moors in the reconquista in 1462, and it remained Spanish until 24 July 1704 when the Spanish governor surrendered to Sir George Rooke. If it never had been Spanish, surely the Gibraltarians would use that as a central plank in their defiance of Spain.
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cossie
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On fire! |
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.... but better in the Isle of Man or Channel Islands than in the Cayman Islands!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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tim
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Hey I said I couodn't recall the spelling of caedo! I got the rest fo the verb right if not the spelling!! Not too bad for last doing latin in 1963 with no dictionary to hand!
"Which things having come to pass, he left the debate, mirabili dictu!"
Do remember Labienus and Cotta? Why, though four forts make a camp is castrum not a valid noun?
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tim
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No Message Body
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"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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mihangel
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Sorry, Tim, I was very hard on you. At least you remember more of your Latin than I do of my calculus, after a similar interval! Actually castrum _is_ a valid noun, though not used by the 'best' authors. But musn't get bogged down in that. Incidentally, the dictionary says castrum/castra perhaps derives from castro, to castrate. What's the connection, for heaven's sake?
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tim
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Which English adjective agrees in gender with the noun? I believe it is the only one to do so, and it's a particular favourite of mine
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mihangel
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mihangel
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tim
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Steve
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tim
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No Message Body
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tim
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"caedo" means I slaughter or to sacrifice
"Cedo" means I yield
Collins pocket dictionary. I don't have my large Cassells dictionary, but my son is nearer latin than I am and he confirms it!
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mihangel
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Yup, that's what I said. We're not in dispute.
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A trivial question... 
Cool... Just the kind of answer I was looking for! 
Re: Cool... Just the kind of answer I was looking for! 
Bugger. I shall now go and kill my source! 
