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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If the answer is yes then I ask what motives can there be.
Andy mentioned a play, "The Larrame Project" being put on by his high school's senior class. A noble effort.
But do groups produce these exhibits as a way of making a moral statement or are they presented because it is "Cool to be gay and gay friendly"?
Is it done to make the local public aware of a social dilema or is it done to make an outrageous statement to their family and peers?
I was just curious....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Sometimes, the reasons behind something can be overanalyzed. Perhaps the true question shouldn't be what is the ulterior motive, but to ask why we need to look for one. And other times, we should look at what is being done and see that sometimes it's being done for itself.
A good play, like all good art, has its own intrinsic value and that which we, as observers, place upon it. Therefore, for whatever reason, whatever motive and whatever intended outcome, the play will be what it is and what you see it as.
And to paraphrase a famous psycho(-logist), "Sometimes a play is just a play." 
Peace my brothers, Cya on the other side.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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Everything can be done for the wrong reasons. I don't know why the senior class play guy teacher man chose this as their play. If I had to guess it might hav been becuase of the guy who had the lead he is so amazing. We had a few kids who were their parts no acting required. I am completely bulshittin here. I don't know why they did it nor do I speculate about the motives. All the etacher said to explain his choice was "he was doing it becuase it needed to be done"
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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But I'm not sure why anyone would chose this play to amke a statement for the wrong reasons. First, it isn't likely to sit very well with many parents. Second, if there are complaints, the teacher responsible could ultimately lose his job, especially if there are some very conservative members on the school board. On the other hand, risking a job (or career), on something like this for the right reasons might just make it worhthwhile.
It's one thing to stir up controversy for the sake of stirring up controversy, it's something else to risk one's career to do it.
Think good thoughts,
e
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You miss the point.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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If something is done and all agree that it is the right thing to do, what practical consequence can there be as to what prompted the people to do the right thing? If their reasons for doing the right thing were wrong that's their problem, is it not? It's certainly not mine or yours.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ok.... but.....
Right in who's eyes?
And ... Wrong in who's eyes?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Original motivation is not nearly as important as the effect. Does it realy matter? I don't think so. Positive exposure in most any form helps the overall effort for Gay, Lesbian, and Transgenderd to some day be made equal citizens.
If your doing something to combat hate in the world, then I doubt that the motivation was wrong anyway.
Just my opinion.
Kevin
::-)
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But are these things generally put on to combat hate?
Or are they put on to make people aware?
Two very different things....
Or are they put on in order to make a statement of rebellion?
Yet another reason....
All are good reasont to those that are putting them on... But what has the positive result and for whom?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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"Because it needs to be done". The drama teacher was showing hatred and intolerance to people who close their eyes. It was brave of him because he could have become the target of the same hatred and/or lost his job. He had to have the backing of the school's administration to present the play.
There is another play "Bang Bang You're Dead" that can be downloaded off the internet and has been presented by high school drama groups all over the the country. It's about bullying and bigotry and hatred within the walls of a high school. It's not aimed at gays specifically but at anyone who is "different". It tells the story of one boy who decided not to take the trashcan dumping, toilet soaking, shoving, slow torture anymore, took a gun to school and shot students. The play is a story within a story as the dead students come back to ask him why. There is a video of it now made by Showtime and is heartbreaking.
I won't question too deeply WHY people make the effort to show this to an audience of intolerant closed minded people. I'm just glad they are brave enough to do it and hope that within that audience some hearts will break and open to a better understanding. What these sad people never see is that THEY are the ones keeping the world from becoming a better place.
There can't be wrong reasons for trying to show the right thing to do. If one person in that audience who had been unaware or who had thought "So what? he was just another queer" realized that Matthew Shepard's death was wrong....was a travesty....was a result of ignorance and a blight on the face of God, then it was worth it.
Done now ~ smith
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No Message Body
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You seemed to have slid past the point as well.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Only the positive result is important. If the motive was just, the teacher should be praised. Other than that it just doesn't matter.
Peace to all,
Kevin
:-* :-* :-*
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Sigh...................I give up......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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NO sarcasm intended, I just think we'd all like your take on it. We seem to be miscommunicating. Help us see your point.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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You said:
"Is it done to make the local public aware of a social dilemma or is it done to make an outrageous statement to their family and peers?"
I understand what you're asking, Marc, but wouldn't we have to know the feelings/orientation of the person setting the stage?
Are you asking why the actors would participate seeing as how they are high school students and at risk of being bashed for their effort? That their participation would be an outrageous statement?
I'm not arguing with you truly......I'm trying to understand what you're trying to say.
smith
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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In recent times I have seen quite a number of people that, in my opinion, appear to want to live a gay lifestyle just because it is considered fashionable amongst open minded communities. In big cities where discrimination for the most part isn't a problem I think people sometimes do go through fads where they feel it is good to support a certain minority, just because they don't want to seem closed minded and they want people to like them.
It is altogether possible that the play is being shown, just to say, "Hey, we're not afraid to show this play, we're gay-friendly, don't you love us?" and if that is the case then it is quite sad, but by the same token it is quite probably that the effect will be positive.
Quite often right things are done for the wrong reasons though, but they are still right things, it just means that the people whose motivation is wrong shouldn't get the respect that often they do get. Political correctness has gone overboard in recent times, companies will use black people (in movies, as models, as company employees, whatever) not because they are the best person for the job, but because they are black and they need to preserve their non-discriminative image. This doesn't make using black people bad, but it does mean the motivation is askew.
Here in Japan because I am a foreigner I am treated with a sort of god-status at times, because seeing foreigners is such a novelty. I live with two Chinese Canadian guys, and despite the fact that they are just as Westernised as me, because of their appearance they don't get preferencial treatment. Discrimination is bad, but reverse discrimination can be just as bad.
As for the play though, I think even in a gay-tolerant community the state of society thesedays is such that it still takes an act of courage to do something like show this play, not only for the teacher, but even more so for the boy that plays Matthew Shepherd, I think even in the most gay-friendly community to be playing such a role would put one in a potentially unpleasant spotlight. From what the teacher said though, it seems like the motivation is in fact right and that he is making a stand because he feels it is necessary, even if there are negative reprocussions coming from it. But really we will never know, just as we never know the true motivation behind other acts of standing up against discrimination. Sometimes the motivation is right, sometimes it is wrong, sometimes the end justifies the means (or motivation) and sometimes it does not. I hope that was kind of the response you wanted.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I have never read the script for the play, so I don't know whether it is a good play in it's own right, or whether the appeal is just in the fact that it tells an important story. Maybe the teacher chose the play, not because it is about being gay, but because he thought it was a suitable play for his students' abilities and the kind of play that would achieve the purposes that a school play should have. Though really I would like to think that it was chosen for both reasons as that would probably be the best motivation for it.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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First, This is not about Andy's HS's senior play. I used that as an example of what brought this to mind. Actually it was a rememberance of an article I read in a magazine about 2-3 years ago.
What I was wondering is wether people say they want to be gay for the sake of being different. Do kids "act" gay in school as a way of gaining attention?
After all it is one thing to say you are gay... and quite another thing to actually be gay...
In other words, it is easy to talk the talk, but is it just as easy to walk the walk?
As an example, At Cedar Point, where I work in the Summer, there are ALOT of gay college boys (1500-2000). One does not have to walk very far in the park to see kids hitting on more experienced employees for the sake of a better job. However, when it is time to do the dance and the "hit on" backfires, the sparks seem to fly and we are less one employee.
I am not sure if I am making my point as clear as needed to be understood here. I shall try to find that article for referance...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The play itself is poingnant, moving and about dead on accurate (as related through personal interviews with friends and family of M.S.)
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think this may be called serendipity when it works out for the good, and a total cock up when it works out for the bad.
Hard to attribute motives in either case.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Actually, I think you explained it rather well that time. Thank you, Marc. I believe I understand your point.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what is it called when no one still can see what I am trying to say here?
Pointless.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I wish I did. I just can't see the point in trying to guess (and yes for any of us it is a guess) what someones motives might be. Since it is unlikely we will ever know the motive, we can only deal with the hard facts. Those are the content and fallout, good or bad from the play in question. I have already talked about those in previous posts.
So what are you trying to say? What is the value or understanding you are seeking? And how does that knowledge of motive affect anyone?
Curious Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Don't look at me. I had a crap weekend. But do try to explain a little more
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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nevermind.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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This..... Is..... Not..... About..... The..... Play.....
The play is what reminded me of the article I mentioned somewhere in this shitpile of a thread.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I can't answer your question at all. It poses manyothers, as well. The main one is "Does it matter if the right thing is done for the wrong reasons?"
Answering this one might say "yes" sometimes (the play, for example) and "no" other times (Bush and Blair and Iraq, for example)
I can't see black and white here. My reasons get superimposed on "your" reasons when I try to reach a conclusion.
I might approve totally of the play (No idea, because I have not seen it) but may hate your reasons for putting it on. After the play the audience polarises (let's say) into those who are rabidly homophobic and those who are not. Did that polarisation exist before? If not then it was potentially the wrong thing done for whatever reason. And so the argument becomes circular.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Marc wrote:
> What I was wondering is wether people say they want to be gay for the sake of being different. Do kids "act" gay in school as a way of gaining attention?
In my school it WAS fashionable to pretend to be in love with younger and pretty boys. That got them some attention and was also a careful lie. They did not fancy them, and woudl have been horrified (mostly) if the younger boy had responded positively OR negatively.
>
> After all it is one thing to say you are gay... and quite another thing to actually be gay...
Yup. As long as it was a pretence then it was AOK
>
> In other words, it is easy to talk the talk, but is it just as easy to walk the walk?
I just can't relate this yet to "doing the right thing for the wrong reason". Not gay and acting gay-like is wrong thing. Getting attention is wrong reason.
>
> As an example, At Cedar Point, where I work in the Summer, there are ALOT of gay college boys (1500-2000). One does not have to walk very far in the park to see kids hitting on more experienced employees for the sake of a better job. However, when it is time to do the dance and the "hit on" backfires, the sparks seem to fly and we are less one employee.
So, hitting on an experienced employee for a better job by "Acting gay" and then running like hell when the other guy moves in for (eg) a kiss is the thing you are using as an example? If I have this right I can't yet see how it relates to the original title. Help me?
>
> I am not sure if I am making my point as clear as needed to be understood here. I shall try to find that article for referance...
Please! That should do it
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I know you don't seem to get along with Kevin, but that's just not nice.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Weird. Ah well. Cookies are cookies
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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That is one funny nickname (no offence Nick .... hehe) where did you get that?
Hugs,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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All right, If a person is so slow with the intake and assimilation if information that they have to be spoken to with only one word at a time then that is what I will do.
This post, thread, conversation, discourse, interlude, subject is not about the merits of a teacher allowing his class to present a play for their school.
It is about presentation and how it is percieved either on a personal or group level. It is about something I was curious about (my mistake). Furthermore the real mistake was in my asking about it here.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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If people are unable to grasp a concept then that is a mixture of their being unable to see what the originator is getting at because fo the eay it is expressed, and their own experiences limiting the frame of reference within which they view the text.
It does not mean that they are to be belittled when they do not immediately grasp what you are saying.
You've used perjorative words and phraseology quit eoften in this and its colleague thread. The issue at stake is interesting. As a teacher you know how to express this clearly, of that I am sure. So please refrain from getitng upset or impatient and explain it so we can understand it.
Now I know oyu have done this.
It is not about the play.
It is about (I think) the concept of the play as a vehicle for expression of emotions of a challenging nature. Gay Tolerance and acceptance. I think it is about potential posturing and hypocrisy. But I am not sure.
I do not understand the relationship with the headline, though
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am not slow with the intake or assimilation of information. It makes me sad that you think so little of me that you must resort to this condescending way of communication.
I am sorry that you are having trouble. Does it seem that I am the only one that does not quite understand your question, or think the wording incomplete?
Am I just the target you choose to attack? Why? What have I ever done to you to take this type of tone with me personally?
I state my views or questions like anyone else, but you choose to attack me. Why?
I truely am sorry if my presence offends you in any way. If I have done anything to you to cause this type of reply, then again, I apologize.
While my feelings are hurt by your words, I will be OK. I just hope you will be too.
Your friend,
Kevin
:'-(
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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How many times must I say that the thread is not about a play?
What language would you prefer?
I know I said it at least twice.... But you continue to draw back to it. Repetedly.
This once was a place where discussion on a range of topics could be undertaken.
Of late, it has become an arena of point-counterpoint faceoff debate. If there is not a razor sharp, clearly defined, fully present statement then there is no solution. If there is discourse that runs eskew of the board icons then one runs the risk of ostrization.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Re: Can the right thing be done for the wrong reasons?????? 
Re: Can the right thing be done for the wrong reasons?????? 
Re: Can the right thing be done for the wrong reasons?????? 
Then please enlighten us 
Hey. Unfair 
