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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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Do you think that there is any act of true altruism/selflessness?
Is this even possible?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The most usual example is Mother Theresa of Calcutta. She is held up as saintly and altruistic.
Even so, MToC received much to satisfy her own earthly needs from her apparent altruism. Not least of these is the good feeling one gets when one has done good to others.
Altruism, that is doing good for zero reward, is not posisble. But, once one allows the doer of good things to enjoy doing them in even the smallest way wiythout ruining the definition of altruism, then altruism becomes possible.
Does it matter if the person doing good receives a reward? If so, why?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I believe it is possible.
The fireman that enters a ferociously burning building to save a child.
To me that is true selflessness.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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A professional fireman receives payment and presumably a good feeling
A volunteer fireman receives a good feeling
Each thus receives a reward, thus it is not pure altruism
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Sometimes I see people put this extremely narrow definition on altruism, which as a consequence cannot ever exist really, unless the person carrying out the altruistic act more or less perishes during the act.
I believe that is wrong. So the fireman feels good about saving the child (ugly drunken fat old man/person/whatever), so what? He's only human after all. In what way does that change the act, or the reason it was carried out?
Did the fireman save the child because he wanted to feel good about himself, or because the child needed to be saved? That's a more relevant question in this situation than wether the fireman feels good afterwards or not, wouldn't you say?
One would think it was for the latter reason, because the child was in danger and the fireman was in the position to rescue it, had the means, the training and perhaps most of all, the courage to make a successful attempt.
Now ask yourself the a similar question about politicians... 
Hugs:
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what about the fireman that dies in the act.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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He died in the full expectation that he would not, and in pursuit of whatever reward he was anticipating.
he was probably quite upset about dying. Interestingly, if there is a heaven, and he a christian, he was in full expectation of a place there.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Here I am simply looking at the orginal question that was posed
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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If altruism is caring about something other than yourself and selflessness is being unselfish, then doing something from your heart without thinking of what you might gain by the act would be an altruistic/selfless act.
There are times when you do something that will gain you nothing and still you do it. I think it's curmudgeony to say that everyone looks for what they will gain, be it $$ or praise or even a good feeling inside themselves. To do what's the right thing to do, the only thing to do would indeed give you a feeling of warmth and pleasure but that's not selfish; that's human.
Example: Lenny's walks through town and his sharing of the day. Andy's playing of the bells on Christmas. Setras helping me eveytime I mess up my computer. Ron proofreading my story. Kevin reminding us that God holds us in the hollow of his hand. Tim creating a site to help anyone who asks. Yes, people get a feeling of pleasure but that isn't selfish; it's just making them shine.
I know you're going to say that getting that feeling of happiness is then not selflessness. But Dang! If you were selfless, why bother to exist.
smith
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Ditto to what smith said!
The fact that there might be other tangible or intangible benefits is beside the point, in my view.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I never argued that mine were anything other than pedantic.
I also never argued that there is anything wrong with a good feeling. I just took the original question, as stated, and applied logic. And logic is brutal.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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In my opinion your quest has two possible answers. If you say the altruistic act has no befefit, then I would say no. Doing something for someone else even without an obvious benefit feels good.
If your question is motive based then my answer would be yes. I know many people including myself that have done things with no thought of profit or reward of any kind. And in some cases to great personal cost.
Somewhat of a yes and no answer I know. But that is the best I can give you.
Peace,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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You should also consider how the fireman would have felt knowing he could have saved the child, but did not. Or how people would have seen him also knowing that he was perfectly able to do so, but didn't. It's possible that the child was saved because he was avoiding those feelings.
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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By motive do you mean a conscious one or subconscious?
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Conscious
I do not believe a subconscious motive could ever be quantified.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Sure their is a selfish nature to some acts of bravery, but does that really diminish the act itself?
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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"almost" Webster's dictionary defines altruism "1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others. 2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species.
There fore if a "good feeling" received after committing an other wise selfless act is considered "beneficial" then a truly altruistic act is most likely not possible. Though definition 1 leaves open the possiblility of benefit by the person.
On the other hand, what about the soldier who instinctively throws himself on a grenade and is killed in order to save his buddies? He receives no benefit as he is dead. Even if honored posthumosly, he does not receive the "good feeling" nor does he know of the honor bestowed upon him. I see nothing beneficial for him, only that he committed a truly selfless act.
I don't think one has to die to be altruistic. He must only commit the act without regard for what it will bring him, only considering what he is doing for others.
Think good thoughts,
e
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Altruism 
Why does good feelings defeat selflessness? 
