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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The publisher who has book one's manuscript at present is encouraging. Look, they are asking questions instead of rejecting out of hand. I may need to do some rewrites, perhaps to increase the age by a year or so, but I am cautiously optimistic.
This may seem unusual for a publisher, but I have some questions about your story. It is well-written, but it is the first male lovers book either I or my YRB submissions reader has read. In my mind, it borders on pornography, as it is extremely graphic and the age of the leads is a concern.
- The young boys seem to have an inordinate amount of sex. Is this normal for that age? There are almost too many sex scenes.
- Many of the sex scenes are touching, intimate, and loving. Would inexperienced 14-year-old boys be that tender and knowledgeable? I can't imagine it of the young teen-age boys with whom I'm acquainted. I would be more comfortable with the subject matter if the boys were more mature.
- It was a tad unbelievable that the parents were totally accepting and allowed the boys to spend the night together often. Parents of a young boy and girl would not allow their teens to spend the night together and have sex. Is this more acceptable where you are?
- Do you think that Chris coped too readily with the idea of having a male lover? It was only a couple of days, and he didn't think of himself as gay.
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Admittedly good points - are they stuck on "very realistic", or will they accept fantasy?
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Must awaken before posting. Don't put new Topic in E-Mail space! Sorry, the topic was the important thing and I screwed it up.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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I am so happy for you, regardless of the outcome.
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I sent them some justifications Heck I'll see if I can find them and post them here.
Typos ridden because the office fire alarm went off as I was proofreading it, soi I had to press the SEND key in a hurry as we evacuated the building
No concerns about any of the questions. I asked myself the same ones as I was writing it. I will interleave my thoughts below. If any of these thoughts is incomplete or raises more questions do please carry on being unusual and carry on asking.
>
> This may seem unusual for a publisher, but I have some questions about
your
> story. It is well-written, but it is the first male lovers book either I
or
> my YRB submissions reader has read. In my mind, it borders on
pornography,
> as it is extremely graphic and the age of the leads is a concern.
In terms of the issue of possible pornography, I take as a precedent the books by Chris Kent published by GLB Publications. They are as graphic, and sold by Amazon.com worldwide [that sounds unbelieveably pompous, sorry!]. I don't know if that then makes me immune to the concept of pornography, or simply that someone has walked this road before. He writes of not only that age group, but some of his published short stories (regrettably to my mnd) have adult male with pre-pubescent boy in them, yet he is published and sold mainstream (titles are The Boys of Swithins Hall, and Boys In Shorts). Other books of a grpahic nature are the now out of print "Lord Dismiss Us" by Michael Campbell, which I read in the 1960s from my local lending library, The Hand reaered Boy By Brian Aldiss (I think), Then & Now by William Corlett.
>
> - The young boys seem to have an inordinate amount of sex. Is this
> normal for that age? There are almost too many sex scenes.
~smiles~ I suppose we could edit some out if the need arises, though I found them germane to the plot. There is no "norm" really. At 14 (they will be 15 in approximately the March of the year) most boys who are sexually aware [I agree that by no means all are!] will be masturbating substantially more than once a day. Given the chance for pure sex with someone else they will leap at it, though most are obviously statistically going to be heterosexual. In reality they are really only having sex about once a day,
and with passion, and with love.
>
> - Many of the sex scenes are touching, intimate, and loving. Would
> inexperienced 14-year-old boys be that tender and knowledgeable? I can't
> imagine it of the young teen-age boys with whom I'm acquainted. I would
be
> more comfortable with the subject matter if the boys were more mature.
>
I could, I think make them more mature in years. It woudl require some dilligent global search and replace work and then proofreading by someone not "close to the plot" to ensure any oddities were removed. Until this is the final obstacle to acceptance I will argue strongly against it for several reasons. We do, howver, have to be sensibly commercially aware here, and I am not going to make a "principled stand" over something that may fade into unimportance.
I base the tenderness on my own history. I wish I could say the novel is autobiographical, but it is not, yet the feelings, the tenderness, the love, and yes, the knoweldge, are the feelings I had when I was even younger, for I fell in love at 13 with another 13 year old boy. I was as tender, in my mind, as Chris is, as Nigel is, and I was over a year younger.
I have shown the manuscript to boys of that age who are gay. They find it (how do I put this without sounding arrogant) insprirational. They have realised that they are allowed to be tender, may fall in love, need not hide in corners. Freeing is a term used. It may be that it is an example. I have also shown it to gay men my own age who say that they wish they had beenable to read it when they were kids, so they would not have felt alone and afraid. And yes, some people have said the boys are too young, but the majority have been content with the ages even when I pressed them on the subject
No argument that so many young teens are not as tender, nto as mature. I also try to portray the two lovers as kids as well.
It is also not really amazing how fast a person can learn. As an adventurous child I learnt very fast some sexual things that my adult friends do not yet know today now I am 49. I am thinking well before 14 here, well before puberty.
I think what I am trying to say is that thsi is not an "older man's fantasy about teenagers" but a very real story about peole who may be "politically too young" but are in so many ways young adults with an overwheming child like quality as well. My plan is to follow the boys to and through university. Adding a year to their ages would shorten the process, naturally (and I will not be writing "a day=a chapter, trust me!"
> - It was a tad unbelievable that the parents were totally accepting
and
> allowed the boys to spend the night together often. Parents of a young
boy
> and girl would not allow their teens to spend the night together and have
> sex. Is this more acceptable where you are?
Again by example. Also today the laws of sexual consent in the UK (unlike the story which is set in the immediate past) allow male homosexual physical relationships at 16, and yes both our boys are 18 montsh younger than that, let alone the 18 years that was legal then. yet today a frined of mine is happily under the roof of his boyfrined's parents. Even more ocntroversially he is **(age concealed here) and hsi boyfrined is 16. Now I know that is not a comparabel example. In some ways it is more extreme and in other ways it is fully legal.
I am a father. Yes, also a gay man who is married. I considered when writing the story how I would treat my own son, who is now turned 17. When I started writnig he was 14. I also discussed with my wife our own attitudes to the posisbility of his bringing home either a boyfrined or a girlfriend, an dhwo we woudl handle the sleeping arrangements. The UK is certainly more loiberal than many parts of the USA, by the way. We concluded that, since it was a strong propbability that sex woudl take place however hard we tried to forbid or police it, we would make him understand that flaunting it was unacceptable, but that we woudl far prefer him to be in safety and warm with access to condoms etc, than being out and about and having a "quick fuck in the park". We want our son to be and feel safe.
Nigel's parents are totally accepting, though I odnt;l reclal if Nigel's mother has a wobble in book 2, which you do not yet have, or in book one. Chris's mother has a screaming fit, and, because she loves her son, accepts almost under protest. One can see it is a struggle for her, or I hope one can.
Oddly I think it far more likely that two boys be allowed, though not encouraged, to make love than a boy and a girl. If I were the father of a daughter I think I woudl be somewhat more restrictive in my views.
>
> - Do you think that Chris coped too readily with the idea of having a
> male lover? It was only a couple of days, and he didn't think of himself
as
> gay.
I genuinely have no answer for this question. One coudl say that Chris had a revelation of who he was. One could argue many things. He had a struggle, for ages, with his relationship with Carol. I think he found himself, and found what was, for him, a major lack and need in his life which was and is filled by Nigel. That doesn't mean he has no doubts. Did he really cope readily? He has several implied rethinks about it, and gradually accepts that his life is to be with Nigel, or hopes so.
>
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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I'm under no illusions, it can stil be rejected here, and then again and again and again
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Charlie Smith
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 46
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Hey Tim, very picky aren't they, the best of luck with it, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you mate.
Charlie S.
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mihangel
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Likes it here |
Location: UK
Registered: July 2002
Messages: 192
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and hope things move on without too many hiccups. To my mind, if you have to give way on any of the points raised, it should be on the amount of sex. To cut down there would affect the story least. I reckon the age of the boys, and their maturity for their age, are central to the whole thing. If their age were bumped up to say 16, Chris would in all probability have had it off with Carol by then, and Nigel 'stealing' him from her would be much less plausible. I think the varying attitudes of the parents (and teachers)is central too. Isn't there more than a hint that Chris's dad has been there before? And some of the best scenes of all are of Chris dealing with his mum, and of Chris with the head teacher. If the story helps gay teenagers to come to terms with their sexuality, it should also help the parents of gay teenagers; which is almost as important. Stick to your guns as far as you can!
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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The ages are the last point I shall concede, if I have to concede any points (wow "con-caedo!). I view the ages as central. I don't really want to edit out any of the sex, either.
Wuth luck my replies wil have allowed them to realise that I have thought it through, rather than written a "fuck fest"
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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They were as good as they could be, I think.
BUT
Could I have done any better?
The probelm is, these boys are inside my heart, and I am each of them
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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Still a long way to go. a long way
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...Being firm where you could, and flexible where neccessary. I cannot see how you could have done any better.
If the person you're corresponding with is reasonable (and from what you have said so far, that does seem to be the case), you will be able to work out any differences in a mutually beneficial manner, I am sure!
I hope everything will work out for the best.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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"Lenny you are so sweet", BELIEVE THEM!
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No Message Body
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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Can we have signed copies when it comes out? And can we say we knew ya when you were poor and unknown? hehehe
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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tim
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Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
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It may be pure badness, but I am going to send a signed copy to the boy who caused the story:
John, ages 14 to 18, 1966 to 1969 - and yes, the maths does work
It's very strange. Today I can look at this picture with no twinges of attraction, and for the first time in years I can say that I think he was good looking and very cute. For years I was so obsessed I could not tell.
He will receive it in a parcel addressed to Mr & Mrs John! There will be a signed dedication in it.
The boy who inspired the story is different.
Nigel. 1969 and 1970. 14 and 15.
This is the real Nigel. His name was Nigel in life, too. His father it was who owned the jewelery store in my home town. His were the legs I was caught looking at by John's younger brother, and he was the boy I wanted to rub sun cream into. But he will not get a copy, not unless he buys it!
My mother will get a copy!
Now that was a full and indirect answer, wasn't it?
I still need to get it accepted, remember. This is a step along the way, and an unusual one. I am half excited, but know that there is a 70% probability of rejection even with these promising signals
[Updated on: Thu, 27 September 2012 07:20] by Moderator |
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richard lyon
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Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
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No Message Body
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Re: Chris and Nigel 
Tim, you have dreamed of this day, but you never dreamed it would come 
I am now agonising over my answers 
Good Luck! 
