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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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An odd thing at my high school this week. Remember that this is a small rural county, not a big city. Two girls announced to some of their friends that they are lesbians and have loved each other for over a year. Of course, this spread everywhere within the same day. Several girls huffed and puffed and said they just wouldn't be their friends anymore but no one cursed at them or threatened them and lots of people even said they admired their courage.
We were all standing around the Subway parking lot a couple of nights later and the subject came up. A younger kid asked if there were any gay guys here. Immediately, guys got all defensive and there was lots of cursing and name calling (you know the names) and threatening.
The result of all this is that two girls can come out and hardly ripple the water. If two boys came out, they'd get the crap beat out of them, if not worse.
The reaction of the guys generally about the girls was "That's hot. I'd watch." The reaction to even the thought of two guys was "They'd be fcukin' dead."
Is it ignorance or fear??
smith  ??
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Both. If it turns them on, it's all right.
That is the attitude of a lot of straight-blokes.
You said when you'd die that you'd walk with me every day
And I'd start to cry and say please don't talk that way
With the blink of an eye the Lord came and asked you to meet
You went to a better place but He stole you away from me
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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Yes, it's both. Fear because they feel their own masculinity is threatened by gay guys. Ignorance, because the fear is irrational. Gay guys are not a threat. They tolerate the girls because they aren't a threat. The fact that they think the girls would want (or even allow) them to watch is more ignorance.
{{HUGS}}
Think good thoughts,
e
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Just plain ol' stupidity at work...
We're so good at being stupid, us humans. 
Take care:
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually,,,,,, It's fear.... And Ignorance.... And desire....
I have found that the guys that expound the loudest, most explicit threats are only doing so to cover up feelings of the desire to explore undiscovered territory.
Also the more poignant scenereo would be that they are compensating because they just might have walked the road once or twice already.
After all, The menu item that ia desired most and complained about most often is the forbidden fruit.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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i'm sorry, but it's not always that way, and it sort of stings that you assume that it's that way for all girls that 'come out' or date another girl.
i'm facing the prospect of my brother and father, straight males, never speaking to me again. EVER. so no, the lesbians don't always get the easy way out. i've seen girls in town here beaten to bloody pulps for being "dykes". :-[
even most gay guys bash us, at least most of them around here save for the ONE safe place there is to hang out, so. i don't know.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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I just don't get it!!! What the fuck is the problem?
Oh well, we get what we give. If we can't even stay true to ourselves,
then we have nothing to back us up. Then we are no better, or maybe worse, than the Rev Phelps of the world, because hate is hate. And if we preach against hate, and then spew it ourselves, whatever. I don't know, I don't know anymore, I don't know anything.
You said when you'd die that you'd walk with me every day
And I'd start to cry and say please don't talk that way
With the blink of an eye the Lord came and asked you to meet
You went to a better place but He stole you away from me
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Hate sure enough is one thing.....
But being true to ones self is quite another.....
If it wasn't then there wouldn't be any closits for gays to hide in.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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so i have to ask real fast--are you yelling at me? i wasn't yelling at smith, i wasn't like, targeting him either. if it came across that way i'm totally sorry! just showing that this side of the grass isn't necessarily greener, either. not all the time. sometimes i get tired of the assumption that it is, and my feathers get ruffled. i meant nothing personal.
i'm shutting up from actual "topics" now.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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You are right, it doesn't always work that way. Lesbians aren't always accepted or tolerated even by gay guys. However, there are a lot more straight guys who are willing to tolerate lesbians than gays. It may not be universal, but the double standard does exist. But your point is a valid one and we should all make more of an effort at practicing tolerance.
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Guys "feel" that lesbians will "perform" for their enjoyment. They get off on 2 naked girls, and fantasise about being part of the action. None of lesbian activity is a threat to their masculinity.
Oddly, very few girls get aroused by two guys having sex.
When guys come out as gay, other guys get twitchy around the asshole. They wonder what it would be like..... And that wondering creates shcock that they coould wonder. That shock creates self hate , which they take out on the gay kid.
Horribly, the gay kid can often be raped by the alleged hetero guys when he is being beaten up. Double the double standards here
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well, Kicker ole pal, it's true, fear and ignorance both play a part in that attitude. And I'm not talking about the ignorance that just doesn't know any better but the ignorance tht refuses to admit possibilities. As in Ignore-ance. It's not just a lack of wanting to know, it's a refusal to look, and that is fear as well.
Truth of the matter is, such fear promotes a primal responce. And we blessed with the Y chromosome often react to such primal stimuli in direct, fast and often violent ways. Strange that the same gene that makes us all crave speed, motion, action, direction and makes us want to stare at shiny objects will also motivate us to be stupid. Reactions should be reserved for political commentators, media hounds and scientific laboratories, not for social situations.
You'd think that straight guys would rejoice that they know of at least one or two gay guys. They themselve wont be doing anything sexual with you and there'd be at least one more girl out there they can chase. OF course, staring down "Bruno, the ape man" while he's about to hand you your hat, along with your head still in it, isn't encouraging. And using psychology on someone who is now in a fear/anger state isn't good either.
We all know, from our own growing up experiences, that fear of the unknown, of the forbidden, of the mocked and hated, only brings it farther outside the circle of what is acceptable to know, find out about and understand. Even if you don't follow the beliefs, understand the tennats, proscribe the truths or follow that faith of any given religion, for example Islam, that shouldn't mean that you can't at least read the history and try to get a grasp on the culture.
But it's spooky at times, too. "Walking the edge, there's a high price to pay; everybody's watching every word you say." Maybe those are just lyrics from the first song I ever wrote, but at the same time, I think they get to the core of your problem with what happened at school. And yeah, I agree with you, it's not right, but it is partly biology to blame.
Manhood can have several meanings. A few of the more obvious aside (especially with this crowd, LOL), I think it comes down to honor and pride. I know that we all have a large dose of that running around. By-product of testosterone, I guess (or is that Bi-product, LOL, sorry, couldn't resist). But we all know that having your honor challenged gets your anger up. Maybe we should start teaching our children to be proud of their sexuality without being threatened by it. It shouldn't be a point of honor, but the feelings associated with it should. It is honorable to show love, compassion and respect, and that includes in sexual situations as well as just normal daily life.
Idunno, maybe we're all just highly defensive creatures. That we're hardwired from the brain to the bone to be ready to fight and protect what's ours. A holdover of evolution from the cave man times. Then again, compared with human life on this planet, human civilization hasn't really been into an advanced state for all that long. Even the Egyptians, who we can all agree where among the first of the truely advanced ancients, only date back their culture some five thousand years. We've been crawling the earth for over 200 times that.
Perhaps the fact of the matter is that we, as a species, are at a watershed moment in evolution, not only of our biology, but of our culture as well. We are slowly losing the cave man, and gradually becoming the star man. We're just now realizing that in our race's adolescence we've done more harm than good, sown more hate than love and even caused more hurt to ourselves than any other natural force can. We're like a virus, seeking to become and amoeba. But to do so, we have to shed a lot of the past. The worm has turned, but the butterfly has yet to take wing.
I dunno, I guess I'm rambling and making a small slice of reality a lot bigger than it is. Fundamentally, it's how the kids around you are raised that will shape a lot of how they determine right and wrong, smith. A lot of how times we in the south are ruled by hot blood and fast tempers. In the past, it could be said that such things could be tempered by respect, honor and curtesy, but I fear a lot of that has left us in this graceless age. I may be a yankee living in the south, but there are things I do respect about this place, and sadly, those things are fading like old linen in the sun. My guess is that a lot of what you are seeing is reflecting that change as well.
At any rate, I guess it's our duty to help find the cure and not lament the disease. Ignorance can be taught, although it takes a special consideration. Stepping on toes doesn't get smiles and handshakes. Challenging someone's beliefs is surely a way to start a war, not to prevent one. Even shining the truth on them isn't the best path. Understanding comes in small bits and pieces. Just like figuring out Algebra. Then again, I suck at math.
Did I have a point when I started this? Kinda hard to tell now, isn't it? I guess it all boils down to one simple fact. Sometimes people are assholes. Individuals can be shown right from wrong and given a chance to figure it out on their own, but as a group, the lowest commonality will rule. I'm surprised we haven't succumbed to mob rule. A person may be thoughtful, approachable, even accepting of what he cannot himself apply to his own life. But a crowd will always side with whatever they think everyone else thinks, regardless of anyone asking an opinon.
So yeah, fear and ignorace have a place there. And something darker. Shame. Not out of any sense that they themselves might be gay, but of the even slightest hint that others might think so as well. And that may be the true tragedy here. Fear, guilt, shame and hate are all great motivators in human behavior. Sadly, the others, Love, compasion and respect are sorely lacking in our times.
I wish I had an answer for you to how to counter all that. If anyone else does, please tell us all. I think this old world could use a shot in the arm from those last three. And a little hope as well.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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I know that lesbians can be ridiculed and physically and mentally abused just as gay guys can be. I was only telling of one instance. I'm sorry if you felt that I or anyone else was putting you or your situation down in any way. I sure wasn't.
smith :-/
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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If very few girls get turned on by two guys having sex then why is 50% of the audience of Queer As Folk women? What do they get out of the show? You know I have like this ummmm "passing interest" in QAF I go to the Showtime MBs and all these women are like gaga over Brian&Justin and there's all this fanfic out there that is HOT!!! written by women. What do they get out of it if not the guys having sex?
JJ
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Ena
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Getting started |
Registered: January 2004
Messages: 23
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Well...smith is right. Some of us do get off from two guys having sex but even more so when we perceive that there is some emotional attachment in the act.
Ena
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have to agree there....
Sex is just that... You can get your fill by just walking thru the zoo if it is just the mechanics you are interested in.
But when there is a bond of emotion between the parties involved.... it is somehow more erotic.... More beautiful....
There definately is a huge difference between getting laid and making love....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I wrote earlier... around the first of the year that I had come out to my mom and two of my kids around Christmas time.
Now, an update... dealing with the reverse double standard.....
My mom is great. She is asking about Greg (the guy I am dating) all the time...she even calls him her son-in-law.
My daughter (13) loves Greg dearly, and though she isn't so sure about me being gay and how it all comes around, she told me a week ago that "if she could pick out one man for me, it would be Greg." Very sweet and tear filled thoughts followed that.
My youngest son (15) is pretty neutral about everything... though he teases me playfully about being gay.
My eldest son (21)... now talk about reverse double standard.... bought for himself a Christmas present... two..not one, but two 3 foot by 5 foot posters (they are huge) of two women in a very risque' pose kissing... clothed in one, naked in the other... and said it is the most beautiful art ever made and that he has ever seen. However, when I told him I am gay, he immediately disowned me and hasn't talked to me since. He won't return my phone calls. He has called my other family members and told them about all this, and has tried to make my life miserable. (Little does he know; I am so thankful to be made this way. I am comfortable being just who I am.)
Reverse double standard... disown me for being gay. Embrace with all his heart the beauty of two women kissing both clothed and nude.
Go figure, huh???? If anyone can figure this out, please enlighten the millions of us who will never figure it out on our own... or maybe it is just me...
I love you all....
BamBam:-??? ?? ?? ??
Celebrate your life... embrace your love... Become intimate with your place in forever !!!
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BamBam, I'm deeply sorry about your older son. I hope he will come to his senses with the help of your other relatives who seem to at least be okay with it. It must hurt so much to have your own son reject you like that, but having others there for you will help you through this, and your son will hopefully, with the guidance of others that he's talking to(for opposite reaction, but who knows) will reverse his disownment and stuff. I'm here, along with the rest of the board members if you want to talk 'bout it. You can email me, or you can send me an im, at ucmeal(aim). Good luck with you and best wishes with everything. *BIG HUG*
Al
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Reverse Double Standard 
DNA, Big Apes & "Where did the love go?" 
Re: my penny worth ... 
An Incredible Reverse Double Standard I Just Experienced.... 
