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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Please, if you answer, be serious....
Do insects go to heaven?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Reincaranted, surely?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc, sooner or later, we all go to heaven. Hell is what you make of it. For some, Hell is what you do to yourself and those around you.
So, I'd have to say yes. According to Genisis and several other sources, "the Lord God made them all, and he saw that it was good." Maybe they come back as something higher in the food chain, or maybe there's an insect park in heaven where they never have to worry about becoming food again. Never been there, can't tell you, and anyone that tries to sell you a roadmap there needs a small rubber room to bounce around in a while. But if God made even the insects, and he found them to be good, then surely there must be a place in the afterlife for them as well.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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I'm making the assumption that the 'heaven' you're talking about is the Christian one (if there's another one, I don't know, but the rules for getting in might be different). I don't think insects go to heaven. I think that the key to going is being saved, but to be saved you need to have a conscience, make conscious decisions and i guess work towards going. Insects don't do that, because they can't. That said, i guess i'm an atheist (if you have to put a label on it), and was raised that way, so i don't know how accurate i am.
-Jeanne
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Umm... They have to go somewhere, eh?
At least the non-annoying ones.
You said when you'd die that you'd walk with me every day
And I'd start to cry and say please don't talk that way
With the blink of an eye the Lord came and asked you to meet
You went to a better place but He stole you away from me
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I don't believe you can experience heaven unless you understand the concept.
The same is true of hell.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The energy of life or life force is apparent in every creature that "lives". That is a given.
Therefore, what makes the life of an insect any less valuable within the framework of "existance" than any other creature?
Understanding is a result of experiences. How can a thing not experienced be understood?
Until it was "proven" otherwise, the world was "understood" to be the center of the universe. That understanding did not make it so. Yet at the time, it was "understood that man must be at the center of all things" and thusly all beliefs reflected that idea as such.
Yet the reality yet existed simultaneously.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Which came first, Heaven or Religion?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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Religion.
Heaven is merely an idea created by one religion (and picked up by a few others, though most emphasized in Christianity i think). The idea of a non-earthly reason for things and an afterlife has been around for much longer than the idea of heaven (for example, the ancient Egyptians. They had an idea of afterlife, but not of heaven). Heaven became much more popular when rulers realized that they could threaten subjects with the punishment of hell, for not being good.
How could heaven have existed before mankind? Other animals are not conscious of goodness (well i suppose some are, but they aren't good to get into heaven, they're good to survive).
And, just out of curiosity, what says that hell didn't come first? (Besides, perhaps, the Bible, which i have never read)
Btw, if i offended anyone, i didn't mean to.
-Jeanne
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OK, been researching this interesting topic and here's what I found out, with acknowledgements to the Encyclopædia Britannica.
Well of course it all predates Christianity. In Greek mythology, Elysium was the paradise to which heroes on whom the gods conferred immortality were sent.
Norse mythology has Valhalla, the hall of slain warriors, who live there blissfully under the leadership of the god Odin.
In the Old Testament heaven is regarded as the abode of Yahweh, the God of the Israelites; because he also is heaven's creator, he transcends the celestial sphere. Until the 3rd–2nd century BC, Israelites generally did not view heaven as the abode of those who died but rather believed that all men (good and evil) slept in Sheol, the underworld, which was a place of neither pain nor pleasure, punishment nor reward. In later Judaism, however, heaven came to be viewed as the postmortem destination of the righteous, who would be resurrected to live with God.
Christianity, coming out of this matrix of Judaism, viewed heaven as the destination of the true believers and followers of Christ. Some of the more recent interpretations view heaven symbolically as a state of life with Christ, rather than as a place to which the elect or the saved go after death.
Islam, influenced by Judaism and Christianity, views heaven as a place of joy and bliss to which faithful Muslims go, according to the will of Allah (God). In the Qur'an, the Islamic scriptures, there are references to the belief that everyone must go through or pass by hell before reaching heaven.
In the Eastern religions, concepts of heaven vary considerably, some being similar to Western religious views and others being very dissimilar. The Chinese Heaven (T'ien) is the guardian of the moral laws of man and the physical laws of nature. T'ien also is synonymous with the divine will. In some Mahayana (Greater Vehicle) Buddhist sects, such as the Pure Land sect, heaven is a “Western Paradise” for those who have received the saving grace of Amitabha, a buddha (enlightened one) who vowed to save all living creatures. Orthodox Buddhists, especially those of the Theravada (Way of the Elders), do not usually speak of heaven, but rather of Nirvana, the state of existence in which there is an extinction of desires. In Hinduism there are many and varied concepts of heaven. Worshippers of Vishnu, the Preserver, for example, believe that they will go to a heaven in which there is no suffering, fear, or death and that they will be able to live in the glory of Vishnu's eternal light.
Without going into the detail of these various beliefs, I would hazard a guess that Marc's insect doesn't stand much of a chance with most of them.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So are these each separate and distince places?
According to the theology of each of these religions they each are exclusive to all but the faithful to each.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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According to the different religions, yes. But they all sound like the same thing to me.
Is there any religion in which everyone gets rewarded, or at least doesn't get punished, other than atheism (which technically is the absence of religion/faith/belief in god, w/e), (secular) humanism, agnosticsm, etc.? I'm thinking no, because then there would really be no point in participating in it.
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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Er, wait. Actually, don't most religions believe that theirs is the only 'right' one? So, I guess in the minds of those following a religion their heaven is the only one and the others just don't exist.
Or maybe not.
(I apologize for not knowing more about religion)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In the Buddist tradition, all persons return in time in a rebirth. Reincarnation so to speak, according to western understanding.
Think of life as a thread, each thread is a part of a tappestry, when the spool of each thread runs out, another must be eventually tied to the former in order to keep the tappestry going.
The quality of the previous life is considered to be related to the quality of the thread in the tappestry. Therefore it is believed that a good life is given a slightly better thread than the previous. A poorly lived life is given one of slightly less quality.
And thusly, the reencarnated lives are manifested through the quality of the thread they are weaving into the tappestry.
I hope this explaination isnt too obscure.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The concept of singularly correct religous doctrine is not universal.
Many religions (mostly eastern) encompass the quality of ones life as being considered what is important. Therefore any person that lives a good life is believed to be an asset to the "fabric" of humankind.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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In Buddhism there doesn't have to be an infinite number of reincarnations. If one reaches the highest level of spirituality, when that person dies, they achieve moksha (sp?).
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Which takes the conscousness into a higher plane of existance.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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Dumb question: Where you replying to the first or second part of my statement were you replying to when you used the tapestry analogy?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Mostly the first, but both could be considered applicable.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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So is moksha the Buddhist equivalent to heaven (for lack of a better word)? Or is it like another life in which the process repeats itself? Or is it neither?
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As in the referance to "heaven" as we are led to understand it there is no concrete base of evidence to support or refute its existance.
However, from what I have read, I am led to believe that life once Moshka or Nervanna is reached is immortal such as in western belief as it relates to heaven.
In Buddism, such attainment is considered rare.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Actually, Buddhists look down on Christians/Muslims/etc. for being so exclusive.
Most Buddhists are very much live or let live about religion.
One image I like is that Buddhist scriptures talk about everybody needing different "vehicles" to enlightment. If one vehicle doesn't work for you, another one might and you should keep looking.
But one vehicle is as good as another, and Buddhists have never tried for converts.
As far as bugs in heaven...nope, don't think so. Every being is supposed to be re-born into higher states of consciousness, so the bugs are going to have to keep working their way up the chain. According to Buddhists, anyhow.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Buddists don't so much "look down" at western religions for their exclucivity. More correctly, buddists pitty them for their closedmindedness.
As for rebirth, lives take a higher form of consciousness "if they are worthy".... Thus my annalogy of better as opposed to lesser quality thread in another responce.
As for my question about bugs in heaven.... This was but a meer vehicle to get this ball rolling.... My point was to eventually lead to the notion that in Buddist tradition, all life is held sacred. Even that of an insect.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I think that in order for anything to go to heaven it must first have a sense of self, for the very expectation of survival of bodily death is, naturally, based on personal identity without which it would be impossible to live when separated from the physical reactions that occur within or when associated with the body. Therefore, if some creature can be expected to continue to "live" after it "dies" it must first be said of that creature that it is self-aware or that it at least is capable of creating or experiencing second-order volitions. I believe that insects do not operate on this level and so it is my assumption that they would not survive a physical death given the fact that they lack the self-consciousness - the basic means - to do so. But that's just my opinion.
viðrar vel til loftárása
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Then are you saying that within the span of time and the progression of evolution that there was a point where a child went to heaven and its parents did not?
For an epiphany to occur there must be a nexus; a point in space and time where the idea is born.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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