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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I have just been told by someone that they have received two allegedly anonymous hate mails because of a post here.
I find myself wholly not pleased by this.
The person concerned has sent these emails, ostensibly anonymous, to the relevant authorities.
The person who sent them needs to think very carefully about their actions in the future.
I am going to give no clues about the topic or the recipient. I can tell you that they are extrememly upset. Me too.
I suggest a private and abject and true apology from sender to recipient. The recipient can then tell me if and when that has been received, and I will report that fact here.
Now, if you have something to say to someone offline, I suggest you make sure that, even if you wish to deliver a message that is unacceptable, you deliver it in a manner that is wholly accetpable.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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On the one hand we are ordered to take these things to private email so as to keep them off the board.
When they are handled through Email.... Here they are once again on the board....
Also, if something is indeed taken through Email, what does that have to do with the board?
I just dont get it.... Walks away... muttering and scratching head....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Let me try to give oyu an example that looks perosnal, but is just example text. Both are texts of emails.
text one - Unacceptable, and horrible to receive:
"You whining piece of shit, keep yoiur opinions to yourself if that is all you have to say"
Text two - not necessarily easy to receive, but acceptable:
"I saw what you posted. I'd like to understand it better, because my first impression is total disagreement with the opinion you expressed."
Ok, neither example is very "real", but I think you get my drift? What happened was in the category of "text one" not of "text two". OK, it was off the board, so it should not affect us here. Doubtless, if I had the email headers, I could identify precisely who it was by IP addresses, but I am not about to do that, either in private or in public. It may not have been a person who posts, or it may have been a regular. But someone was hurt sufficiently to write to me about it.
I'm not about to police every piece of correspondence even if it were practical to do so. My pruose in the post and explanation is to remind us that we are meant to be civil and civilised when we speak to others.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It really is a shame that anyone feels the need to behave in that way, publicly or privately.
I hope whoever was involved can learn something from the experience so that they don't repeat the mistake again.
"Make love, not War"
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But nevertheless, the concensus here was to take and keep such things off the board.
That means off the board from both ends of the stick, not just the shitty end.
Either there are rules of etiquite or there are not.
Or are there two sets of rules?
Still confused, still muttering......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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Say, you post something that I feel is unreasonable and I reply that I think you were being unfair. Okay...now that's all that's seen on the MB. But what if then I get an e-mail from someone else telling me that "I'm a stupid shit of a kid and need to get lost; go find a MB where I can whine and bitch and drool over teen rock stars and leave the real people to have a decent conversation". Now, see that DOES concern Tim because I have as much right as the person who e-mailed me to be here and the mail was sent because of a post and reply on his MB.
I wish everyone could just enjoy each other's different personalities and not reply, either on the MB or in an e-mail, unless the message serves a benefical purpose.
smith
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, constructive criticism doesnt always necessarily feel good.
It is all in the eye of the beholder so to speak...
Personally i don't see why decent conversation can not include rock stars.... but then again it isn't my opinion that is under fire here...
BUT.... when the situation begins by way of an admonishment in a new thread with no explaination of the circumstances then it IS a one sided situation placed on the board....
Like it or not.... It should have been handled entirely off the board....
Unless there really are different rules for the prefered few....
As for wishes.... Well they seldome if ever come true....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I am not going to be drawn into saying whether the person affected is an old poster, a new poster, a regular poster or an irregular poster.
I am simply going to say, again, that civilised behaviour is expected on the board or between board members. I see no reason to change my stance on this.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My stance is that what happens off the board has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Therefore if things of this nature are to remain private and off the board.... they need to be left private.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The issue I am speaking of is uncivilised behaviour. Someone has told me that they feel driven away because someone else has sent them more than one unpalatable and most unfriendly email. I find that merits a public comment. I am asked to moderate the board and this is how I choose to moderate it
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, any topic is open to discussion,,,, and you did bring the subject up...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And public comment is entitled to public rebuttal.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is of course one opinion....
But that is of course... one opinion....
I believe the board should be free from contraversy....
By bringing "off the board" contraversy here.... At or on any level you are installing the contraversy here, on the board....
Either it is to remain off or it is not.... but the rules can not flip flop according to any persons whim.... If they do then they are invalid...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I see no problem with timmy's original statement. I see no problem with Marc's disagreement that it should be posted here or the discussion on why or why not. I tend to agree that stuff that does not accur on the board should not be discussed on the board. But in this instance, the "hate mail" was in response to a post made on the board by someone who reads the board and is having an effect on the person who posted on the board. So I see no problem with timmy making a response on the board in the way that he did.
Marc, you mentioned in one of your posts that constructive criticism does not always feel good, but timmy's explaination was that this was not "constructive criticism." This was hatemail and very mean-spirited according to timmy. He may not have provided the details, but he did provide an explaination. This place is supposed to be safe. I see timmy's post as a way to keep it that way.
Think good thoughts,
e
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My comment reguarding constructive criticism was not directed at Tim's post. It was directed at smith's "example" of an email.
See, I kind of like having conversation that has some degree of thoughtful input.
Now I know what you ALL are going to say, that the fluffy, blow a kissy, play a game kind of thing has a place here as well... And I agree it does... To a point...
But too often, posts that have a potential to create new ideas tend to be left behind or to just a very few replies. It seems that the serious part of this life tends to bore the players to death.
Perhaps I should just go elsewhere to find intelectually stimulating conversation. It used to be found here, and I guess I was hoping that when all the pleas for a return to "how things used to be" that that part of this world would follow along.... But alas I seemed to be wrong once again....
Ah well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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with some changes smith posted exactly the class of invective used against someone else. "I'm a stupid shit of a kid and need to get lost; go find a MB where I can whine and bitch and drool over teen rock stars and leave the real people to have a decent conversation" was a good translation removing the perosn it was sent to from the frame.
The recipient obviously trusted him as well to receive what has been sent. By which you can drawn the conclusion that he was not the recipient. Nor was I. That is the closest we get to who it was and was not.
It was personal, targetted, shot with a rifle, not a shotgun, and deeply unpleasant.
I do not apologise for raising this topic. What amazes me is the attitudes displayed against a cry for help and for civilisation.
How clearly do I have to say this? Someone has been driven away from here by this
Is that more acceptable than my saying that the behaviour is unacceptable? I don't think so. Is it better to discuss semantics, or to look at the loss of a friend to us all? Should we discuss what is valid to post, or look at the problem one of us has caused another?
This is not an academic thing. It has happened.
I will remain implaccably calm, and simply look at this set of replies with total disbelief and astonishment.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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And I will be just as amazed and astonished at your insistance that this needs to be here at all.
Just as you have told me on numerous occasions....
Stay.... or go.... It matters not.... Just make it my own decision....
Well the same applies to the pups here as well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I return to my entire point. Civilised behaviour is acceptable. Uncivilised behaviour is not.
It is simply unacceptable for someone here to flame someone else, especially with text similar to that sent. I cannto see that anyone woudl find it acceptable. It was uncivilised, abusive and not what this place is about, nor what I am about.
My purpose was simply to point out that it was wholly unacceptable. Every step of the way you are arguing. What are you arguing for? For such messages to be passed uncommented upon? For that message to cause someone to write to me quoting text showed that the message was hurtful in the extreme. Is it all right to send vile messages to people as long as no-one sees? That is the message you are sending to all who read your posts.
You seem to be arguing this point as a matter of principle, not as a matter of good judgement. I am perplexed by this. It is like picking a scan to see if the injury has healed. It never has and it always makes a bigger scar.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ok,,, in a nutshell.
The email was a private communication. By this origional post I see you as policing private messages. Bringing the entire thing to light on the board does nothing to stop it. Nor does it make the situation better.
It is to me a matter of principle.
Dont be perplexed, I am quite clear in my wording and my intent.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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smith's example was offered as constructive criticism, but was offered as an example of something that was not constructive criticism. The example he used would quite negative and hurtful to a person receiving it. It is precisely the sort of thing that should not be tolerated as a response to a post made on this board. A such it was a very good example.
I have no problem with constructive criticism. By its very nature, it encourages postivie change without being insulting. And you are right, it is sometimes painful. The difference is that it is not mean-spirited but instead is offered in a friendly,helpful manner.
I also have no problem with disagreement or debate. When opinions are offered, it is only natural that someone else will offer a different opinon. When such differences are friendly, it is a good thing. However, when a person digs in and begins to insult or attack someone for his opinions, it should not be permitted here.
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e
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On fire! |
Location: currently So Cal
Registered: May 2002
Messages: 1179
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I forgot to sign my last post
Think good thoughts,
e
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The behaviour exhibited, by one member here persecuting another, remains unacceptable.
It is obvious to all that I cannot police private messages. It is obvious to all except you that I am not trying to. I am simply stating that the behaviour exhibited in persecuting anyone is intolerable.
To put it plain, I do not tolerate it. I don't tolerate it for anyone here. If someone decides to flame you for your stance on this I will also say that such behaviour is unacceptable.
You are sending one clear message as a by product of your matter of principle. You are confirming in so many ways that the victim of this hatemail was right to feel persecuted and driven away, and that the perpetrator behaved correctly.
So, instead of something really simple, joining in saying "This behaviour was unpleasant and unacceptable", you want a matter of principle, or winners and losers? How many times have we been through the fact that the winners are the community here? And that we win by sticking together?
This point you are insisting on has no point. Except to drive others away in drives, for they perceive an attitude that tolerates persecution.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You are as ever so adept at placing your own predisposition on my intent.
I never once said that the content of said email was appropriate.
I said that the person was correct in sending an email and not placing his message on the board.
I also said that by your bring this entire affair to bear on the board that you are bringing an intended personal and private matter to the community, open and in public.
So to be fair, I am saying that not only the email, but your choice to make this issue public is unpleasant and unfair.
My point indeed has a point, even if you choose to refuse to see it.
As for those that come, visit, stay or go, like you have so indicated to me, it is their choice.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I have only joined this forum today, so I haven't seen all the replies, but I do agree with e. Constructive criticism is helpful for anyone to improve. people use the constructive criticism to help strenghten what they are like currently. constructive criticism is not detrimental and demeaning, rather it's suggestions to improve. Disagreements/debates happen ALL the time. We all have our own views, and of course disagreements will arise. if we all agree, everything would be so boring. Yet, I don't condone insulting one person for what he believes, nor trying to restrict a person from saying what he wants to say. There is a line between disagreements and insulting. If you're saying, that "I don't agree with what you're saying is right, because ..." that's a disagreement you're merely expressing opposing views." But when it's putting someone down for their beliefs like "You're stupid because you believe that."or something like that it starts to tread on someone's feelings and that's not right. I had a recent problem with someone who did exactly that, and it was not a pretty situation to try to heal. Generally constructive criticisms, or disagreements are perfectly fine in any situation, but when it comes down to insulting or attacking someone for his opinions, that's wrong. Well enough of my blabbering.
Al
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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unless someone e-mails them and tells them to go the f**k away. Not too many people can ignore that and post again.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Wether or not they choose to post is their choice.
An email can be deleted just as easily as it can be read.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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This behaviour is unacceptable 
Re: This behaviour is unacceptable 
