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Does KNOWING you are a bad person make you, well, in lack of a more suitable word, 'better'? Even if you consider yourself irredeemanble and unable to stop being a bad person?
Does acknowledging to yourself you are corrupted make you more, hm, 'redeemable', even if you yourself consider yourself beyond redemption?
Does a person truly ever get beyond redemption anyway? I mean, in the eyes of others. Does it matter wether the person considers himself redeemable or not?
I guess, answering these questions may depend on wether the one answering them has any belief in a higher power of sorts. I'm just wondering... No particular reason. I guess I'm just thinking out loud. Well, loud, hm... I'm typing after all. Oh, you know what I mean! 
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I have no idea how to answer you beyond the concept of repentance allowing entry into christian heaven regardless of the sin. And I am not sure I wholly believe that
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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I think morality is relative. However, i do think that there are somethings that most people agree are right/wrong. I do not agree with most people --> I am a bad person, in their view anyway.
Does knowing this make me a better person? I think admitting that you see things differently can make others have respect for you. I don't want to stop being a 'bad person', i'm completely okay with who i am.
One should not have to redeem himself to himself. god/goddess/gods is/are another story, one that i won't go into because i'm an atheist. But i must say that if you're going to change yourself to be 'redeemed' or get into heaven (or whatever), then you aren't as noble a person as you think you are (to me).
I think i'm beyond redemption because i don't want to be redeemed. I don't fit in with the rest of society and am quite happy with it being that way, i don't want to be grouped with them. To me being societally redeemed requires forced conformance, and that's pretty fake.
-Jeanne
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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1. I don't know that i actually answered, your question, but i tried.
2. In Jeanne-shorthand that little arrow means therefore.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Lenny, please define 'bad person' and, most especially, 'redeemed'.
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I believe the answer to your questions is "yes", totally aside from whether or not there's a spiritual element involved.
Timmy, I also do not believe in cheap grace...i.e. living a crummy life, delivering a death-bed repentence, and promptly going to Heaven or wherever...I believe that all actions and decisions have consequences, sort of like karma.
I look at Lenny's questions as perhaps also meaning, "Does self-awareness help promote real growth and change in a person's life?" I say Yes, of course!
If Lenny also means, "Is basic change in outlook or behaviour possible?" I say again, Yes, of course, even if it takes hard work and causes anxiety while undertaking the investigation and soul searching.
And to address the comment, "...even if the person believes himself to be unchangeable or irredeemable..." I still say yes, even then, because that has to do with self-perception and self-esteem. And we all know how fragile self-esteem can be, and how mistaken a negative self-image usually is. By that I mean good looking people believing they're ugly, perfectly loveable people believing they're worthless, stuff like that.
Unless that's not what you were talking about, Lenny...hehe
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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I was watching the third episode of "Angels in America", as Al Pacino gave a truly horrific performance - though not in terms of acting, I mean on a human level. He was unrepentent, and bad. Very bad. I guess it got me thinking.
I've been thinking along these terms before, but it's always difficult for me to phrase these thoughts so they make sense, in part because they're often quite elusive, and a reasoning I thought I'd grasped just a few moments before putting my fingers to the keyboard might have slipped away unnoticed.
I thank the ones who responded, offering input. It's most welcome. Also, I think all of us are entitled to having our own views about this. I like you David, do not believe in deathbed confessions. That to me seems like a cheap way out. If I wrong someone, then I cannot gain forgiveness by confessing to a god. I must confess to the one I wronged and humbly ask to be forgiven...
Does karma exist? Well, I don't know. To some extent, we do create our own misery so in a way one could say it does, but confident people usually avoid that simply by believing in themselves, no matter wether they're good or bad. I'd like to think it does though, and if we do not get to reap what we sow in this life then perhaps in another.
Personally, I hope I am good enough to be allowed to get another chance living a life as a human on this planet, because it could overall be a very positive experience, existing as an upright, hairless ape.
Hugs:
-L
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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You have an interesting point, but you kind of skirted around some of the more philosophical points that could have come out of the topic by perhaps focusing too much on the relgious and sexuality issues.
Take a personality trait of yours that you don't agree with and then look at the question again. Does acknowledging these bad personality traits (that we all have) make us any better of a person?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Getting to know your own personal flaws is always a positive thing. It doesn't mean you are necessarily a better person, but you can become a better person through personal awareness.
I also agree that change in outlook and behaviour is possible, though I think sometimes a person can't do it entirely by themselves and such changes need some kind of trigger. The trigger can be something tiny but until it is triggered it is possible that the person will engage in continuous self-destructive behaviour that they never seem to be able to change, regardless of how much they try or want to change. This doesn't mean that you should stop trying to change, it is never impossible to help yourself, but often a trigger of kinds really can help.
As for the repentence thing, well, even from a Christian point of view I don't believe true repentence is a simple proceedure. It usually does involve apologising to the person you have wronged, but in the cases where no-one was harmed, then repentence is about not only fully admitting and facing the consequences of what you did wrong, but also having an attitude of never doing it again. Deathbed repentence can work, but I doubt it would in most occasions because the attitude behind it is wrong.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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ch.oo.lo
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Toe is in the water |
Location: Michigan, USA
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 49
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I honestly can't answer your question in a way that you would find satisfactory.
::shrug::
Sorry, I just don't/can't think like that. I can answer it like i think another (normal?) person would, if you want that.
Could you define what makes someone a good person? I think that the only thing that makes someone good is the way society perceives him/her. Maybe you disagree.
-Jeanne
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sparks
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57
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All of us are created with a *life-force* endowed by a creater,whatever our belief.I believe that it is important to consider that we or us are worthy of redemption in whatever respect.That spark of redemptive matter leads to salvation and I am not preaching religion here.I further believe that not one of us is lacking that spark that gives value and validation to our lives.One does not have to reach to outside forces to validate our being,That validation has been freely granted with no strings attached.I further believe that our thoughts and deeds merely position us with respect to our peers.Only in passing beyond does one get judged,however one believes.The simple fact of the matter is that we our our harshest judges forgetting that we are all worthy. s
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sparks
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57
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All of us are created with a *life-force* endowed by a creater,whatever our belief.I believe that it is important to consider that we or us are worthy of redemption in whatever respect.That spark of redemptive matter leads to salvation and I am not preaching religion here.I further believe that not one of us is lacking that spark that gives value and validation to our lives.One does not have to reach to outside forces to validate our being,That validation has been freely granted with no strings attached.I further believe that our thoughts and deeds merely position us with respect to our peers.Only in passing beyond does one get judged,however one believes.The simple fact of the matter is that we our our harshest judges forgetting that we are all worthy. s
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sparks
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57
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All of us are created with a *life-force* endowed by a creater,whatever our belief.I believe that it is important to consider that we or us are worthy of redemption in whatever respect.That spark of redemptive matter leads to salvation and I am not preaching religion here.I further believe that not one of us is lacking that spark that gives value and validation to our lives.One does not have to reach to outside forces to validate our being,That validation has been freely granted with no strings attached.I further believe that our thoughts and deeds merely position us with respect to our peers.Only in passing beyond does one get judged,however one believes.The simple fact of the matter is that we our our harshest judges forgetting that we are all worthy. s
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"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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A question of morality, perhaps... 
Quite frankly David, I don't know WHAT I was talking about.. 
And you've got triple the life force there, sparks! Hehe 
