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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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A good friend and I have discovered that the perosn he loved online and who appeared to love him is not at all the person he purported to be.
At first it was little things. Just odd feelings. Then we got a load of oddity including- he says he is at a certain school. He is not
- he says he has no exams this summer. This is the wrong year to be at school and have no exams
- The school has not heard of him anyway
- On reflection his pictures feel too old to be of the school age boy he states that he is
- A friend who was at that school does not recognise him from either the name of the pictures he has supplied
There is much more, all of which is individually small beer. But put together it is a huge tissue of lies.
My question is, what does my friend do? We have a name and a street address. We are 90% sure we know who he is, and that he is at the very least an adult, but we don't know yet precisely how adult. We know he advertises himself as 16 (with pictures of a younthful 16 year old) on gay contact sites, and we know he chats as if he were a 16 year old.
Our feeling about him varies between "stupid brat" and "evil swine!". The online tryst was one that even had plans for setting up home together in about a year's time!
I want to emphasise that this is not about anyone who comes here, and not about anyone you know, any of you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well....
On the one hand we could all meet in a dark alley and put on black robes and hard heavy boots. Next, we could all go to his house and knock on the door and when he answers we drag him into the street and then peel his skin off with a power sander. Then, we could feel the little pieces that fall off as we do the sanding to little yellow and blue birds while we all sing happy songs. Then we draw and quarter whats left and send the various parts to the four corners of the kingdom.
Or......
Your friend could just break free from this person and find sone real friends. Keeping in mind that one does not plan to live together or make steadfast life planning decisions until one gets to at the very least meet his/her paramour face to face.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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What Marc has written - at least the second alternative  - is sheer common sense, and well said. I have nothing to add to his recommendation except my support.
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We each have had, at one time or another in our lives, feelings of inadequacy; Lord knows I have had, and if truth be told, each and everyone of us here would probably admit to the same; teenagers being especially vulnerable. Each of us has the will, and sometimes the need, to let the Walter Mitty in our souls take an occasional flight.
In the "real" World, it has become increasingly difficult to re-invent yourself should that be one's desire; but, in our "cyber" World, that becomes another proposition entirely.
The prurient issue here should be, not that whether your friend's on-line contact has chosen to take a page out of one of James Thurber's books', or not; but, whether any intent to either defraud, malign, injure, or deceive is inherent in his having done so. If not, then perhaps Marc's and Steve's suggested remedy would likely be best for all concerned; but, if yes, then without question some jurisdiction of competent authority should be included in what ever resolution is to be achieved, especially, if as you advise, your friend's contact is someone who "is at the very least an adult, but we don't know yet precisely how adult", where nipping this behaviour in the bud now could well lead to counselling and treatment for issues that if left unchecked potentially could manifest increasingly larger problems at some point in their future.
Should it be uncovered that not only is your friend's contact an adult, but that there is, in truth, a considerable disparity in age between them (suggesting perhaps something inthe order of 10-years, and more, although this is a difficult determination as we do not know your friend's own age) then criminal proceedings must be considered. Frankly, as a practice, there is simply far too much of this deceptive behaviour going on, and should never be tolerated when encountered, either in the "real" World or our "cyber" one.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I'm a strong believer than in the majority of circumstances motivation should be taken into account as well as the actual actions committed. People can lie to deliberately hurt people, but more often than not lying is simply someone trying to protect themselves and/ or the person/ people they love. It is often an ignorant form of protection that has worse consequences in the long run and it can often be self-centered or selfish, but nonetheless my experience with most liars usually proves them to be well intentioned people that simply go about things the wrong way.
Once lied to it is hard to trust again, but I think it is important to note how the liar reacts. Does he take accountability for his behaviour and is he being honest about himself now? Does he show remorse and is he trying to punish himself, is he perpetuating the lie or he is admitting he lied but trying to just act as if everything is okay and can still work out without seeming to feel bad about it?
I'm a forgiving person, perhaps to a fault at times, but in the same situation if I had been lied to by someone I loved, I'd continue to keep in contact with them, at a safer emotional distance and I'd try to find out why they had lied and get to the bottom of the situation. I'd want to work out if the love was real or if that was a lie, too. It is quite possible to be lied to by someone who loves you just because they are scared of losing your love. I believe love can conquer anything and while love thrives in a truthful environment, even if in the past lies have been told, love can heal those wounds and start a happy relationship from today provided the truth starts, too.
If the lying was intended to hurt, there is a substantial unrealistic age-gap or a few others factors involved, then I'd probably go with Marc's first suggestion. It all just depends on the exact circumstances and the natures of the people involved.
This post may sound like I am trying to justify lying, or that I support it. I am not, I abhor lying above almost everything else (save things like taking away free choice, agression against innocents and abuse). As for myself, I try to never lie. I always tell things honestly to the best of my knowledge and from my opinion (my knowledge isn't always accurate, either and my opinion can change from day-to-day). Lying is never constructive, people always end up hurt when they feel betrayed and damaged trust can be hard to mend. Sometimes silence is golden, concealing the truth can protect people, but outright lies usually cannot.
However, over the last year or so I have really started to try and be more understanding towards people. I know when I hurt people it is never my intention to hurt them, I like people, generally and I do my best to show them that. But I stuff up and make mistakes because I'm not perfect. Just like everyone else, we are all human and most of the harm we do is not ill-intentioned, just ill-informed, thoughtless or accidental. Everyone deserves a chance to be understood and to be able to realise why what they did was wrong so they can try and put off that behaviour. Some things are beyond second chances, but I think lying deserves a few chances depending on the motivation. But really it is up the parties to decide.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I agree with the thoughts already posted, with the possible addition of warning the people in chatrooms that he inhabits regularly. A general public warning might not feel like revenge, but may be helpful to other gullible people.
Of course, people in that type chatroom should always try and remember that there are probably as many liars and hiders there as there are "real" nice folks...
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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TygerBoiSammy
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57
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Although the persons this post is about is not me, I've been lied to many times by ppl on net. Ppl that sometmes want to be my friend but don't trust the truth in themselves to be attractive, ppl that just want to use me for whatever reason, and ppl that don't know the diff between truth and lie. And the only thing i have to say about this is just that you can't have love without trust and honesty.
So to the one doing it, you're not in love with this other person, you're just in love with yourself. get a mirror, or get help, but don't think that you're really in love with this person you've been lying to. You're only gonna hurt them and you.
And to the person getting lied to, remember that someetimes it's an act of love to give someone space to get healthy. And it's always an act of love to heal yourself from your own hurts before you accidently hurtsomeone else.
and to those that hurt me, I realize that sometimes not saying what you know isn't the same as lying, but it's also a painful lack of trust, and a heavy burden. I forgive you, and I love you still.....but I have to heal a little myself. Maybe in the long run, what we talked about yesterday is just an indicator of what's for the best all around.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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How much trust can really be alloted to someone you have never met?
I use the word alloted because there are varing degrees of trust as well. These varing degrees of trust are based on the type of interaction going on between the individuals involved, i.e., friendly, work, teacher, mentor, clergy, civil authority, and yes... love.
In this faceless world of message boards and email and chat rooms care must be taken not to open oneself up too quickly. Preditors know the right questions to ask, when to ask them, and have all the counter questions at the ready in order to extract details about unwary web users.
Far too often young people mistake a regular chat buddy as a possible paramour. It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking one is in love without ever seeing the other half of the relationship face to face. How can there possible be (romantic) love in a friendly relationship without the interaction of (no pun intended) hands on experiences?
Now I am fully aware of all the standard reasons (read excuses here) for not being able to go out and find a significant other in the real world. To be quite honest I have used about all of them myself. My reasons for having done this are my own and there is little point in going into all that now. Others in the same or similar situation of having difficulty relating in the real world also try their best to justify their reasons. Is this wrong of them? No, not really, because we all in one way or another form our little barriers and walls and buffer zones in order to be able to function in a not too sure of itself (or ourself) world.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is not so much a right or wrong to it as there is a need to just plain be careful. Don't trust too easily. Don't be so willing to meet unknown persons at the drop of a hat (or zipper). Don't give out too much information about yourself. There is no reason for a chat buddy to ask for a street address, none. Telephone numbers are risky at best, but easily (if costly) to change.
And remember, when things get risky or uncomfortable the most valuable tools in our arsenal of defensive mechanisms.... The "OFF" button on the computer, the "BLOCK" button on a chat, The "IGNORE" button on a message board.
YOU ARE IN CONTROL...... no one else......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Actually phone numbers are dangerous to give out as well. If you enter a persons phone number at Google, if the number is listed, you will get an address as well as a map showing how to get to the person's house.
Kind of scarry.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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i tried it and it does work.... the name was correct but the address was way off..... i guess they don't keep up on updates and such.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Cell phone numbers seem to be imune.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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In case this freaks you out, you can go to:
http://www.google.com/help/pbremoval.html
and have your phone number removed
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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One good thing about overseas living...foreign addresses and phone numbers aren't in their system, I bet!;-D
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I tried my Japanese phone number and the phone number of my family back in Australia and no result! Gotta love not living in a schizophrenic dictatorship.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Danny van der Aaden, or Daniel van der Aaden has been given a great deal of time to reply properly to the person he fooled for 18 months into believing they were boyfriends. The challenge is, Danny, that you are actually a sweet, gentle, loving, lovable boy. And the only issue with you is that you are a man, almost certainly my age.
So, this message is to you to say that I will listen and help if you ask me to. So will your erstwhile boyfriend. No-one wishes you harm, but we do want you to stop deceiving other peopole. It's time to start to live a good and happy life, time to put deception and lack of fulfilment behind you.
Your picture is here for others to see. The fashions are old, and, with hindsight, it is hard to see how anyone was fooled. But we were.
Your "PR" photo from face-pic is first, then the shot of you in speedos. Boys today refuse to wear those. And then the old school mug shot. Oh Danny, this is a 1970s picture.
I wonder if you were at Repton then? I suspect you probably were. Or a brother was.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If you indeed do know more....
Then....
If there is the slightest inclination that this is happening either again or was happening concurrently with more unsuspecting youth and you do not report it to the proper authorities then legally you may be putting yourself in jeopardy. If your young (the decieved) friend is from any part of the USA then you certainly are.
Therapy may be the ticket to happiness for this person but this needs to be done in the real world.
Personally I am all for the sanding....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Neither party is from the USA, and there is onoy emotional danger here. Losing one's heart to someone who is not as they seem may seem irrelevant to so many people, but we know it happens.
There is nothing here except play acting. It just hurt someone who is a good friend. Danny, for that is what I will call him, shies away from contact.
I do have a real address, a real phone number, a 99% certain work address, email and phone number. Suhc things are sufficient to ensure no physical misadventures will happen, for he knows I have all of these.
So I simply reinforce my message. Danny, I will listen, we will listen. From that we can work towards an honourable outcome.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what about the others....
Surely you don't think this is a unique situation.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Of course it is not a unique situation. Equally it is not an "authorities" matter. There is no victim that any law would recognise, no crime has been committed.
We have done our best to warn people in the places where he is known to "hang out" and there is little else that can be done. All he has done is wasted hopes and aspirations of at least on decent, normal, honest young man wiuth his attentions. It is likely he is currently doing the same. It is likely that one person for sure prior to the most recent one we know of was duped in the same way, for a "Matt" who lived in Manchester was feared at the beginning, so we perceive "Matt" to have been deceived similarly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Just so that you are all aware:- no crime has been committed
- all protagonists are over the age of sexual consent
- no-one is going to "go to the authorities" because there is nothing to "go to the authorities with"
- if we cared that much it's only a 250 mile drive to go visit
- we don't care that much
The only thing we do care about is that young(!) Master van der Aaden stops this charade. I've had so many people email me to say "Go to the Police" that I am starting to wonder about the level of thought people use here. Life is not black and white. grey is the usual colour.
But, Danny, just look how other people would treat you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Lets just say that it is the responsibility of the police to sort out if there was a crime committed or not.
It is not the inclination as to wether there was a crime concerning your friend. It is the inclination that there are unwary youth at this moment being duped into something unwholesome at best.
As an example...
Some ten or more years ago in Milwaukee, Wisconsin police apprehended a young man of asian descent who was wearing very little clothing. His friend came to the rescue and convinced the police that it was all just a domestic dispute and they would work everything out. The police, opting to give the couple the benefit of the doubt let the young couple go.
The Asian youth was never heard or seen again.
Some time later, due to reports of strange odors eminating from an appartment police responded to the abode of one Jeoffrey Dohmer.
Need I say what happened to the Asian boy?
I am not saying that this is happening. What I am saying is that these things do happen.
It is better to be safe than sorry.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Actually police need victims. They don't deal with crime prevention. They attend crimes that have happened.
There is no crime here. Nothing has been stolen except love. No-one has lost money. No-one has been hurt. No-one is imprisoned against their will. In short nothing has happened.
Or should everyone on the internet who purports to be someone else be reported as a potential felon?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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While i think that people aren't thinking the whole chain of events thru very clearly, in that the police will have no interest in the case as there is no victim, and at least legally, no crime....nevertheless, i think we can all see that a severe ethical infraction has occurred, and i think it's that sense that an injustice has been perpetrated that makes people call for police involvement.
Yes, in fact, a crime has been committed. Lies were told, trust violated and emotional pain inflicted, all quite needlessly or, at the very best, for frivolous reasons. These are not unpardonable crimes, but they are serious. Many people might say that young men's trust and faith eventually get ruined anyway, so why is this a problem? It's always a problem...and not something that we should be blase` about. But when it happens as a result of deliberate deception on the part of an adult who should know better, that is most emphatically NOT ok.
I think Timmy's suggested solution is the best that has been proposed: see if Danny will talk, and find an honorable solution through mediation. Certainly, if i can be of assistance in that process, i will not hesitate to help as best i can.
cheers!
"I promise not to try not to fuck with your mind/ I promise not to mind if you go your way and i go mine/promise not to lie if i'm looking you right in your eye/promise not to try not to let you down."
--Eve6
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I do understand the sense of outrage at the injustice, certainly. I also understand that, sometimes, we trap ourself in a lie and feel unable to extract ourselves. It is easy to talk to someone online, to like them and to fail to undo things early enough. We all know people who have done that, and we have probably done that in a minor way oursleves, and all with good intentions.
The thing I am trying to make abundantly clear is that Daniel van der Aaden, Danny, the sweet kid we met and liked, is no less likeable as an adult. It is just his behaviour that needs to alter. That behaviour is unacceptable. His erstwhile boyfriend is almost certainly no longer ready to move in with him, though, for Danny van der Aaden is now an unknown quantity.
Danny is not in danger from me, nor from his b/f of yore. He is simply a troubled soul who needs a little time to sort things out.
So, Danny, when you read this, and I know you will, please understand something: You do harm the people you like and the people you love. It hurts them badly to be treated that way. They like and love you. If only you could tell it how it is, then you would find what you need.
I think, probably, the pictures are of you as a kid. The sandy beach is 99% North East England. The speedos put the pic in the early 1970s, as does so much else about you. I am also going to make a guess which may be wildly out. I think you fell in love as a teenager with another boy, and that it either went badly wrong, or you got stuck like I did with an apparent "need for teens". Danny, both of these things can change. You have to make the effort, but they can change, if you make them change. The real world isn't as bad as you think, and hiding in a teenage shape will hurt you often as you hurt others.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 June 2004 11:23]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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what the hell is the point of asking an "opinion" if all you are going to do is put people down for voicing them.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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not desperately keen on the emotive language used here.
An opinion is always of interest. In fact it shows Danny what some people think of him. An oft repeated opinion that has no relation in reality to the subject matter, such as "Call the police" when no crime has been committed, does tend to lose its audience and antagonise it.
The person who was deceived in this has been very restrained, primarily because he does not want to appear here. He has been infuriated by the "authorities must be informed" attitudes displayed, though.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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megaman
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Getting started |
Location: Germany
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 27
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you must be feeling very self-righteous. yes, timmy asked for an opinion. you gave your "call the police" one, some others jumped on the train, and timmy said it was not needed nor an option. THAT could and should have been the end of that road. BUT NO .... you have to state your opinion again and again. and now that timmy commited the mortal sin of NOT giving up his own opinion and taking in YOURS, you accuse him of putting people down for voicing their opinion, although half of this thread is made of you voicing your opinion. better stop whining when you are the attacker yourself!
you belong to the sort of people who say how tolerant they are, and liberal, and how much they value other people's opinions. but only as long as all this doesn't collide with their own opinion.
"all opinions are equal, but MINE is the only right one and a bit more equal - and how on earth can't everyone see that my words are the only true enlightenment anyway".
apart from that: no-one asked explicitly for YOUR opinion, so don't feel pissed if it's not used.
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Marc wrote:
>>what the hell is the point of asking an "opinion" if all you are going to do is put people down for voicing them.<<
Timmy, I must agree with Marc here. Once you post something on a public discussion board anyone has the right to post a reaction - especially if you asked for people's reactions. In a different thread you wrote rather disparagingly of what Marc had to say and when I read it I felt that it was uncalled for on your part.
At the risk of further raising your impatience, let me say that I find your whole attitude to this thread to be problematic. Why ask people "what to do" when you have already decided that you are not going to do anything? The situation you described was one of deliberate deception and misrepresentation over an extended period. In my country that is a crime, and Internet deceptions of this kind have been prosecuted after one such incident ended tragically. Stealing someone's heart is theft too in my book.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You know, if all internet deceptions are a crime in your country I do not wish to live in the police state that has been created around you. I would have thought your nation was the last to persecute and prosecute people for not being truthful about who they are 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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> At the risk of further raising your impatience, let me say that I find your whole attitude to this thread to be problematic. Why ask people "what to do" when you have already decided that you are not going to do anything?
Advice and opinions are useful things. the objective behind asking for them is simple. It is either to confimr an existing course of action or to learn a new curse of action. Indeed it can also mix the two of those.
Never give either unless you are perfectly prepared for it to be disregarded, ciriticised, ignored or even acted upon.
In fact you have absolutely no idea what I am going to do in this case. You know what I am not going to do, but not what I will do. You assume "nothing" because you have no idea what is in my mind.
I am content that you express the opinion that you find my attitude problematic, except, I think, for the choice of word. Why "problematic"? There arre so many words you could have chosen that were more apposite. Iuthas not caused you a problem, nor anyone enlse. It has caused you to disagree with me, certainly. And that is healthy and reasonable. Why should we agree on everything? I suspect you find my attitude one that does not please you, or one that upsets you, or one that you find a challenge. I don't mind that at all. Nor should you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Quite simply you offered this person again and again the chance to talk things through. This is a good idea. He needs help. But I don't think this is the place for him to get it.
He needs help in the real world not the world he uses to create his facade.
I don't expect anyone to take my opinion. But I do expect them to simply understand it. Something that has meen skirted throughout this thread.
I am not expounding on some complicated array of theories here I am expecting people to understand that there is more to the "problem" then meets the eye.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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When the hell did I ever say I was liberal or tollerant?
You have a lot to learn about me I think...
Other than that, It's good to see you up and about.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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... but, in light of the direction this thread seems to have taken, and the acrimony being manifested amongst some participants, I feel an imperative to clarify one point in my original thoughts on this issue.
To summarize what has occurred here:
1) you have a youth of your acquaintance whom through the media of Internet Chatrooms, e-Mail, whatever, this youth has become enamoured of another.
2) you first had asked "our" (the collected Membership at A Place of Safety) advise of how to deal with what may or may not have been a purposeful deception on the part of this youth's contact.
3) you provided little by way detail regarding either party's age, or conduct, other than to allude to your acquaintance being probably under the "age of consent" (that being likely in most any jurisdiction of competent authority serviced by this Board) and his contact being somewhat older (and possibly and adult.
I replied, dissembling as per usual, that whilst "we" all at one time or another in our lives have either had the desire, or the will, to re-invent ourselves, and in the main this could be construed as being non-threatening, nor damaging to all involved; but, I, at one and the same time, suggesting that should this re-invention be designed to either purposefully defraud, malign, injure, or deceive, and it could be determined without a doubt that this youth's contact could be proved to be an Adult, and in particular, an Adult of considerable age disparity (I posited perhaps 10-years or more) then remedial action was definitely called for at the very least, with quite possibly legal intervention.
Subsequent to all this you have now furnished some additional detail, with the following to now be held true:
1) we have to now assume that your acquaintance is definitely under the "age of consent", and we similarly have to assume because of your assertions that this is true, that his contact is most likely someone in his late thirties, and more probably, early 40's, if not older.
2) in addition, you now reveal that it is likely this youth's contact has committed this fraud on at least one other occasion, and is likely doing so now, with others at one and the same time as he is attempting to deceive your acquaintance
3) you are suggesting that other than having *posted* his image on your web-site, with all attendant disclaimers, including your statement to the effect he is, and had now been, categorically warned off
4) you adamantly refuse to consider that a "crime" has been committed here; this not withstanding that in at least three Countries, where Membership at A Place of Safety reside, this youth's contact has committed a criminal offence and would very likely face prosecution in those Countries were the offence have had occurred there
5) you have chosen to denigrate, and deride, all opposition to your position that no crime has in fact been committed, to the degree that you have suggested a "Police State" exists in those same Countries, and you could not possibly ever consider living in one of them.
Timmy, your attitude is simply unconscionable. This from the same man whose quest for his own personal sense of identity led him to what, in his pursuit of a man named John, could well have been construed as having been "stalking" in any country other than the United Kingdom. No one criticized you for your behaviour then; in fact, many lauded you for your tenacity, and your drive in "finding yourself"; but, let me remind you, that you at no time ever considered what the object of your desire may have been feeling; nor did you at any time consider that your behaviour might in of itself have been considered criminal.
I suggest, at the very least, your youth's contact must be sought out and apprehended, criminal proceedings considered, counselling ordered, and his behaviour monitored, and attempt be made to identify all others he has perpetrated this fraud against, and if necessary remedial treatment be obtained on their behalf.
I further suggest that you take a cold hard look at yourself in the mirror, and ask "where but for the grace of God ... could this have been me."
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Warren C. E. Austin wrote:
> 3) you provided little by way detail regarding either party's age, or conduct, other than to allude to your acquaintance being probably under the "age of consent" (that being likely in most any jurisdiction of competent authority serviced by this Board) and his contact being somewhat older (and possibly and adult.
I did not allude to anyone being probably under the age of consent. In any case the lawful age here is 16.
>
> 1) we have to now assume that your acquaintance is definitely under the "age of consent", and we similarly have to assume because of your assertions that this is true, that his contact is most likely someone in his late thirties, and more probably, early 40's, if not older.
Odd assumption. There is absolutely no reason for your assuming this.
> 3) you are suggesting that other than having *posted* his image on your web-site, with all attendant disclaimers, including your statement to the effect he is, and had now been, categorically warned off
Suggesting? no. Stating.
>
> 4) you adamantly refuse to consider that a "crime" has been committed here; this not withstanding that in at least three Countries, where Membership at A Place of Safety reside, this youth's contact has committed a criminal offence and would very likely face prosecution in those Countries were the offence have had occurred there
Name it. What offence?
>
> 5) you have chosen to denigrate, and deride, all opposition to your position that no crime has in fact been committed, to the degree that you have suggested a "Police State" exists in those same Countries, and you could not possibly ever consider living in one of them.
If deceiving someone with your identity is a crime, I don't want to live there. I equate it to a Police State.
>
> Timmy, your attitude is simply unconscionable. This from the same man whose quest for his own personal sense of identity led him to what, in his pursuit of a man named John, could well have been construed as having been "stalking" in any country other than the United Kingdom.
I have rarely heard anything so uninformed. Stalking is highly specific. a couple of letters and phone calls is not stalking. You are creating a whole tissue paper hoiuse here.
>
> I suggest, at the very least, your youth's contact must be sought out and apprehended, criminal proceedings considered, counselling ordered, and his behaviour monitored, and attempt be made to identify all others he has perpetrated this fraud against, and if necessary remedial treatment be obtained on their behalf.
No. Because the facts are not those that you have surmised.
>
> I further suggest that you take a cold hard look at yourself in the mirror, and ask "where but for the grace of God ... could this have been me."
I have often wanted to ask you this, Warren. "The Gay Deceiver". What precisely do you mean by that?
>
> Warren C. E. Austin
> The Gay Deceiver
> Toronto, Canada
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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We are trying other things too. Just one thing would be fruitless.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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... with regard to the handle "The Gay Deceiver", one I use here, and have widely used for more than 30 years elsewhere ...
This was the nickname applied to me (at about age 18, or thereabouts) by my mother on the occasion of my having met for the first time, my brother's then latest paramour.
The young lady in question, and I use that term advisedly (named Jackie if I recall correctly) was actually quite a looker, but it became apparent to all present she was also somewhat of a flirt, taking it upon herself to tease, and otherwise flaunt her considerable charms in my direction, all the while proclaiming that it could not be possible that anyone, looking much as I did back then, could possibly be "Gay".
My mother's reply, heard by all present, much in all as to perhaps suggest that she (Jackie) should not be teasing that which she would be incapable of pleasing, was that no-one within the family was at all interested in her thoughts on the matter, adding that my proclivities were well known and that at best I might be described as "The Gay Deceiver" for all that they entailed. Truth be told ... in my youth I was a considerable rake, sampling, and enjoying, the wares available to me from a largely disparate field, all too often with little or no regard for any attendant consequences. To have called me bi-sexual would have been a misnomer, as given the choice of both a man and woman, each the epitome of my heart's desire, the man would have won hands down each and every time; but that is not to say I wouldn't have then considered partaking of the women afterwards. I lived this behaviour well into my 30's, with it being my then having assumed the responsibilities of parenthood that brought it all crashing down around me; with my ultimately forsaking all in order to provide a stable and nurturing environment for my two sons to grow up in.
In addition to "thegaydeceiver", I have two other handles that like the aforementioned are use today, each having been for much the same period of time, namely, "likethecar", derived from my penchant for stating my name, when asked, as "Warren C. E. Austin", that's AUSTIN like the car, and the ever forthright and simple "warrenceaustin", which begs no explanation.
Over and above these three, I had recently (and subsequently abandoned) another "misogynysucks", which addressed my distaste for those about me that hate all things female, and for whom women remain chattels of little or no account.
To this list there should be added one other, one known only to you Timmy, and to the members of my immediate family; one which has been used on occasion here at A Place of Safety; albeit sparingly, and only in circumstances where a complete shielding of my identity has been advisable and suitable to the topic at hand.
"thegaydeceiver" I use for all "Gay" related commitments, "likethecar" being employed in most non-gay related venues, and "warrenceaustin" generally only within business and family contacts. With the sole exception of the latter above mentioned unidentified handle, at no time have I ever hidden behind whatever identity I have used, with my real name always being known to those seeing it displayed, wherever that may occur.
Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada
"... comme recherché qu'un délice callipygian"
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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> 3) you provided little by way detail regarding either party's age, or conduct, other than to allude to your acquaintance being probably under the "age of consent" (that being likely in most any jurisdiction of competent authority serviced by this Board) and his contact being somewhat older (and possibly and adult.
I did not allude to anyone being probably under the age of consent. In any case the lawful age here is 16.
..... You did mention that when the younger becomes of legal age (18 if I am not mistaken) the two planned to cohabitate. If this is correct them the incident began before the younger became of concentual age. Thus an offense against a minor child......
>
> 1) we have to now assume that your acquaintance is definitely under the "age of consent", and we similarly have to assume because of your assertions that this is true, that his contact is most likely someone in his late thirties, and more probably, early 40's, if not older.
Odd assumption. There is absolutely no reason for your assuming this.
......Read above......
> 3) you are suggesting that other than having *posted* his image on your web-site, with all attendant disclaimers, including your statement to the effect he is, and had now been, categorically warned off
Suggesting? no. Stating.
>
> 4) you adamantly refuse to consider that a "crime" has been committed here; this not withstanding that in at least three Countries, where Membership at A Place of Safety reside, this youth's contact has committed a criminal offence and would very likely face prosecution in those Countries were the offence have had occurred there
Name it. What offence?
..... again read above.....
>
>
> Timmy, your attitude is simply unconscionable. This from the same man whose quest for his own personal sense of identity led him to what, in his pursuit of a man named John, could well have been construed as having been "stalking" in any country other than the United Kingdom.
I have rarely heard anything so uninformed. Stalking is highly specific. a couple of letters and phone calls is not stalking. You are creating a whole tissue paper hoiuse here.
..... Youre way off the beam here Warren....
>
> I suggest, at the very least, your youth's contact must be sought out and apprehended, criminal proceedings considered, counselling ordered, and his behaviour monitored, and attempt be made to identify all others he has perpetrated this fraud against, and if necessary remedial treatment be obtained on their behalf.
No. Because the facts are not those that you have surmised.
.....That remains to be seen.... Let the local prosecutor decide....
>
I have often wanted to ask you this, Warren. "The Gay Deceiver". What precisely do you mean by that?
....I do know of a film from the thirties entitled "the gay deciver"
Just relating to a few facts as they were either here or previously presented.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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To get me aggravated, I mean
local prosecutor is not going to decide. Several reasons why not, including:- No crime has been committed
- wasting police time is a crime
- Planning to live together is not a crime. Period.
- Only two of us here happen to know who and where "Danny" is
- Neither of us are about to have anyone prosecuted
- Repeated insistamce on a prosecution does nto make it right, it just makes it repeated
I have lost track of whom I am replying to here. So this cannto be directed at you. But I am now aggravated, totally, with the witchhunt mentality, whoever it is and however many of you there are.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 June 2004 15:53]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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First of all.... You started all this by bringing something created elsewhere here....
You stirred the pot....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Your attitude is not my fault, it is your own reaction to things and that you are perfectly capable of controlling. I have not caused anything at all.
Ceaseless harping on about prosecution does one thing only: It puts any perosn off coming here with any problems.
"Hi, I have a problem, I woudl like some help......."
"Ah yes. We'll have you prosecuted."
Please start to think. Firing from the hip is a waste of ammunition. You hit buildings, not people. When something needs measured handling, learn to handle it in a measured manner.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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What action shoudl be taken? 
Re: What action shoudl be taken? 
Re: What is the point? 
Thank you. That should clarify one or two ambiguities ... 
