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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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As you know I have posted these to gain information in order to answer a question form a correspondent. He now has his answer.
The polls have raised for me a philosophical question.
"By stating as clearly as it appears to be doing that close familial sexual relationships are acceptable in same gender pairings, do homosexual people make themselves and their sexuality more acceptable or less acceptable to the society in which they live?"
Now I am creating a poll for the simplistic answer. That is easy. Yet I woudl like your thoughts about it as well, please.
To be clear, we are likely to have entrenched positions about this. A reasoned discussion is required, not a heated debate.
[Updated on: Fri, 19 November 2004 12:37]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hey Timmy--
As regards the question of more or less acceptable to mainstream society as a result of our outlook on very close familial pairings...my position is simple: I don't care what the mainstream society thinks about us. I live in the US, and the US recently proved quite plainly that it believes in repressive morality and doesn't like what we do and how we live anyway. One more position counter to the mainstream 'way of being' isn't going to make a hell of a lot of difference.
Furthermore, there is an ethical consideration: I have no right to impose my point of view on anyone else. I can attempt to convince with persuasive argumentation, but at the end of the day, I have to respect other people's autonomy. If a love relationship exists between, say, two brothers, and there is no coercion involved, then i have no right to disapprove and further, no grounds for it either. I guess i'm of the school of thought that "And it harm no-one, do as you will." The only grounds for disapproval would be on the basis of cultural conditioning, and i think that is inadequate grounds for doing or being anything.
cheers!
AJ
"I promise not to try not to fuck with your mind/ I promise not to mind if you go your way and i go mine/promise not to lie if i'm looking you right in your eye/promise not to try not to let you down."
--Eve6
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I worded this poll after a lot of thought.
Uppermost in my mind was the huge ground we have won as gay people since the late 1960s when actually being homosexual was not lawful. I thought about the tremendous strides we have madein being first despised, then tolerated and then sometimes accepted. Not worldwide acceptaance, but accepted by the greta majority of people.
They do still refer to us as "buttfuckers" of course, and no-one wants their wife to marry a gay man.... I digress.
We have won this ground by shaking off the reputation for sex in lavatories, and by combatting the accusation of being child molesters. Note that gay men alwasy come in for bad press whenener a child, male or female, is abducted.
So I have been more than a little surprised to see the results of this poll, since it seems that "we" advicate the pushing back of huge social tabooos about close familial sex.
I am not going to argue the pros and cons ov lack of proecrea6tion. That may be logical and even scientifically relevant. But it does not remove the emotional taboo. "One does not," society says, "shag a close family member".
So it seems odd to me that the poll is effectively stating that "Oh yes we can!"
I interpret the results simply. "Add 'less acceptable' to 'no change'. These two form the 'it's ok to shag our relatives' posoition". It is a valid interpretation.
How can I include "no change"? Because it is actually not a neutral answer. The fact that it is physically between the other answers does not make it the mid point of the data.
In th eother polls there is one trick question, too. "great grandparent/great grandchild" as a pairing most assuredly is age dependent despite my instruction to ignore age. Even if the generatiosn are separated by 16 years (lawful age of heterosexual consent) thee age difference is such that the great grandchild is likely to be, but may not necessarily be, below the age of consent. for 48 years difference (parent to child is 16 years, parent to grandparent is 16 years, grandparent to great grandparent is 16 years. three sixteens are 48) with a great grandchild over the age of consent, the great grandparent must be (add a further 16 years) a minimum age of 64. And the probability is the ages in each generation of procreation are at least 22 years of age. Three times twenty two is 66. Add 16 years for age of consent of great grandchild and you get 80
Now, since most 80 year olds are not sexually active one must assume that the great grandchild is under 16. Quite a way under 16. yet, at the time of writing this post, 9% of those replying to the poll about which pairings are acceptable say that this one is.
Or, to put it another way, 9% of those who voted have stated that they think it's OK for a 79 year old to have sex with a 15 year old, or a 78 with a 14, or a 77 with a 13, or a 76 with a 12, or a 75 with an 11, or, or, or........
I just want to tell those people something.
That is not right in any way at all.
So, how can this make us "more acceptable"? How?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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John_W
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Getting started |
Location: Wilmington NC
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 13
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In places that allow same sex unions do they have the same relationship restrictions in place for both gay and herero couples?
John
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Hey Timmy-- I hope your comments regarding your puzzlement over the results of the polls you took are meant to be ironic. If not.....
Foul! Unnecessary use of nitpickiness...
2 points:
1.) If you are specifically going to instruct your poll respondents to disregard age differences--which you did on several counts--then you can't interpret your data taking into account issues of age. Your instructions to disregard age issues invalidates any hypotheses you extrapolate regarding age.
2.) Only 9% of your respondents said it was ok for geriatrics to have sex with tykes. given the total number of respondents, that works out to...what? one or two? I think (gasp! swoon!) that we may have one or two people on here who find sex with underage children acceptable. We've been through this issue before in other threads, i believe.
It's one of the rules of research: if you investigate a question, you may not like the answers you get. Instead of getting indignant, get curious...ask things like "Have you, the respondent, ever had sex with a close familial relative?" Do gay men have greater experience with this kind of sex than straight men? Could this account for gay men's willingness to consider the possibility that such relations might be ok?
cheers,
aj
"I promise not to try not to fuck with your mind/ I promise not to mind if you go your way and i go mine/promise not to lie if i'm looking you right in your eye/promise not to try not to let you down."
--Eve6
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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When I checked earlier the percentage had decreased but 5 people had said they support great-grandfather/ great-grandchild sex.... I don't see what the point is in getting upset about it, the people answering were told to disregard age, so they are either envisioning a 20 year old with an 85 year old, which although unlikely is possible, or they are imagining an alternate reality inclusive of time travel. Or they think the age of consent should be lower (or live in a country where it is- some places the age is as low as 12, after all), which is "acceptable" though potentially individuals will disagree with it. Advocating a change in law isn't advocating breaking the law.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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