|
|
|
|
He is 19 years old and is no longer alive. I think he is quite cute. All guesses as to his identity are accepted.
-
Attachment: KT.jpg
(Size: 8.50KB, Downloaded 355 times)
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
 |
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
I already saw about this on the news but I won't give it away. I daresay I don't find him all that attractive, though. Quite average by my standards 
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
He looks much more African than I would have expected. And the eye makeup is not flattering.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Unless my geography fails me...... Egypt is in Africa,,,
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
> Unless my geography fails me...... Egypt is in Africa
I always thought of it as Middle East. I have also wondered if this guy Jesus Christ was black, and really from Africa.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
I remember reading an analysis somwhere and I believe (if my memory serves correctly) that through the book of names JC's lineage was traced back to a black ancestor.
Also, there is alot of art throughout the orthodox branch of the church that portrays JC as dark skinned.
I doubt it is all coincidence.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Since Saben has more or less given the answer (spoilsport!) let me just clarify.
The picture is of the Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamun whose tomb and mummified body were discovered by Howard Carter in 1922. Recently the body was subjected to accurate CAT scanning and three teams of forensic experts were given the task of reconstructing the head. The teams were from Egypt, France and USA - and to make doubly sure the USA team did not know whose head they were reconstructing. All three reconstructions were remarkably similar. The picture I gave was that of the French team.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Out of interest (and no, I am not trolling here - I would really like to know!) what evidence is there, apart from that of the Bible, which is full of factual inaccuracies, that Jesus Christ actually existed?
I have done some Googling and come up with articles like
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html
which are pretty damning, but presumably also written from a sceptical point of view.
Are there any historical sources from around Jesus's time that provide evidence that he even existed - let alone performed any of the miracles that he is said to have performed?
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Hey! I left it vague enough that it took SOME thinking to figure out! It wasn't a TOTAL spoiler.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Your reference certainly went straight over my head... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Well despite only being in first year University I can say that the article you linked to was really quite poorly done. A decent article needs to be more than just opinion and needs to actually show where facts are coming from. Vague statements like "scholars all agree" really have absolutely no weight and neither do facts about other Gospels that were forgeries. Regardless of how right that article might be, until the author can put off his bias and show actual RESEARCH I really can't trust it. This goes for Christian scholars as well as anti-Christians; scholarly method demands research and proof of research otherwise it is purely conjecture and opinion with facts that could be taken dramatically out of context.
As for the existance of Jesus, well I personally believe that he probably existed but that he was far from the character the Bible portrays him as. It is also quite possible that Jesus was not a single man, but rather a multitude of anti-authoritarian religious hermits that were probably quite common in Augustus' day. That said, though, I take the Bible as a marvellous philosophical work that is inspired, even though it may not be factual. Even if you are not Christian the Legendary character of Christ has lessons to teach us all.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh, I know that article is not very good, and I included it simply because it is the top result you get if you Google the subject. And it does raise some points that could be used as a starting-point for a properly researched article.
I was wondering mostyl if there are any genuinely useful historical sources that can be used to point to Jesus's existence or non-existence.
I personally am perfectly happy to believe that there were religious teachers around Jesus's time, but I think it is very unlikely that there was ever one person whose life was remotely similar to the accounts in the Bible. I imagine that a large proportion of Jesus's teachings were formulated by the people who wrote the Gospels, whoever they were. And the miracles and resurrection smack of sensationalism, put in long after his death to help convince non-believers. (Ironically, it is those same details that have helped to convince me that he never existed.)
On a side note, it amuses me that a dead person must perform a miracle from beyond the grave before they can be made a saint. Will the Catholic Church apply proper scientific method when investigating possible manifestations of Pope John Paul's spirit before they canonize him?
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As someone who is not a Christian, I find the question baffling. Does it really matter whether Jesus existed or not? Will the answer make any difference at all to the beliefs of millions upon millions of Christians?
And now, an attempt at an answer to David's question. Follow this link: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html
FYI: Flavius Josephus was a Jewish historian writing about 50 years after Jesus' death. As the article indicates, his reference to Jesus has been 'doctored' or 'improved' by Christian apologists, but it is quite possible to separate the wheat from the chaff and to get a verification of the historicity of Jesus of Nazereth.
I hope this helps.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
I am sure a person named Jesus existed. I am sure he was some sort of decent leader. I am equally sure he has been glorified and conceivable assembled as an aggregate of many such people (hence the resurrection, for example).
I think the virgin birth is technically posisble. Semen travels a long way when spilled. An amazing excuse for a surprise pregnancy, though!
People are entitled to their beliefs. Some need proof (Thomas?) others do not, and others do not believe at all.
Does it matter?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
OK.. Here we go.... For one thing, the bible is by no means a complete work. It is a book written by committee over centuries.
Jesus did live, but he was not the man the Christian Church makes him out to be.
Alot of credence is attributed to the four gospels, Mathew, Marc, Luke and John and these were represented into the text of the Bible because they showed the activities of Jesus in a "correct" light.
However, as I skimmed over the article David linked to I saw absolutly no mention of the banned gospels, those of Thomas and James....
These two gospels were banned and ordered distroyed by the vatican on pain of death because they speak of Jesus in a not-so-brilliant light. After all you don't build a church on facts, you build it on faith... and most times these two factors are quite literally in opposition.
Several years ago copies of the lost gospels were discovered in jars cashed away in Egypt much to the dismay of the vatican authority.
For more information Google up...... "Gnostic scriptures" and "Nag Hammadi" also the "Gospels of James and Thomas"
Think about this..... If Harry Houdini had lived in the first century would we all be worshiping Holy Harry and called Houdinians?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Marc/Timmy,
No, it doesn't matter, but that wasn't what I was asking. I long ago came to the conclusion that Christian values, on the whole, are good ones, so it doesn't really matter whether they came from God or from man.
It just strikes me as odd that while other important leaders of the time were mentioned in a lot of contemporary writings, the only mention of Jesus - apparently - comes from Josephus, in editions copied many times from an original that is now lost, in a short paragraph publicly acknowledged to have been doctored...
If the gospels were written hundreds of years after Jesus's death, and there were no contemporary sources, then the writers must have relied on seventh or eighth hand testimony, at best. And everyone knows what Chinese Whispers will do to a story.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry - parent post should have been addressed to JFR/Timmy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thank you, Marc - I'll read up about that and come back if I have any comments.
David
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Google up also......
The gospel of Philip.....
Philo of Alexandria......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
Is a parent post somewhere to tie bad parents to?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David wrote:
>>If the gospels were written hundreds of years after Jesus's death, and there were no contemporary sources, then the writers must have relied on seventh or eighth hand testimony, at best.<<
Again, as a non-Christian. The canonical gospels were written within a century at the most after Jesus' death. The earliest may have already been circulating by the year 55 or 60, and the latest could not have been much after 120. However, no doubt Marc and David are right when they suggest that much of these documents may be later doctorings of 'pious forgers'.
David, you write that you approve of Christian ethics. Personally I find a clear dichotomy between Christians ethics as propounded and Christian ethics as practiced. I would dare say that Christianity has been responsible for more human suffering in history than any other religion. Though, Islam seems to be trying to make up for lost time right now.
I think it was Bernard Shaw who wrote: "Beware of the man whose God is in heaven." From the purely historical point of view that is certainly a thought to be borne in mind.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Now that sounds just a little bit kinky.... I think I'd do quite fine without a parent post myself.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
|
|
|
In terms of life expectancy in those days, when 30 was an old and revered man, think how many times the stories had to be told and passed to new young stoirytellers before they were written down. I am assuming the storytelling tradition was there, too, and was used instead of writing because the popualce was unable to read or write?
Chritianity "conquered" and is still conquering the world. Christian missionaries still exist and are attempting to conquer Africa and other "uncivilised places where the message of Christ has not yet arrived". Historically they were not always sweet natured people. They went "with christ at their side" and did dreadful things.
The Roman Catholic Church is still responsible for much agony and death by prohibiting the use of concoms and thus encouraging the spread of HIV and other reampant STIs. I seem to recall that the Mormon faith requires "natural methods of contraception" too. I have a friend with 8 children now - he's a Mormon Bishop.
Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to conquer suburbia. The two valid defences are "I am a vampire" and I am a Roman Catholic".
Christianity is a warlike religion, but a simple faith. Odd. So is Islam.
From my viewpoint Judaism is a peaceful faith in a warlike nation. Probabaly that needs a separate thread, though! Up to you guys. As a fiath it does not seem to have started any wars, though. The nation has its own reasons.
By the way, if you had been the innkeeper, and a woamn about to give birth had turned up, I htink you woudl have givenb her a peaceful accommodation in a stable on straw. Eays to clean, and hygienic for childbirth! Far better than a crowded room or two in a multiple occupancy "suite" in an Inn, don't you think?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Actually, Judaism is very much a warlike faith, but unlike other religions the battleground in Judiasm is with the mothers and the weapon is guilt.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Light of my life and my only precious one! How could you hurt me so? Is this what you think of a mother who nursed and fed and raised her child to be a fine man? I am proud of you. All my life I have woked and slaved only for you! Never let the thought cross a child's mind that his mother doesn't love him. Even if I have ten children I have room in my heart for each and every one of you. I may be old and grey, worn out from a life of suffering and toil for my darling children, but I will never rest from looking after their every need until God takes my last breath away. So, my precious, now go and tidy your room - and I'll prepare your dinner.
Signed: A Jewish Mother  )
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
OHI......... Guilt is the steel in their spine...
Add with a little chicken soup and a good matchmaker....... How can you go wrong?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saben
|
|
On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
|
|
|
Mormonism as a belief does not take a stance of contraceptions although Mormonism does support anti-abortion and big families. The culture of Mormons (referring to the social and way-of-life side of the religion rather than the faith itself) is perhaps anti-contraceptive but there has always been a lot of disparity between what the religion says is "right" and what people in the church say is "right".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JFR,
Me: "I long ago came to the conclusion that Christian values, on the whole, are good ones, so it doesn't really matter whether they came from God or from man."
You: "David, you write that you approve of Christian ethics. Personally I find a clear dichotomy between Christians ethics as propounded and Christian ethics as practiced."
I absolutely agree with you. My original sentence was the justification I used to myself when I got confirmed; while I didn't strictly believe in God, I came to the conclusion that believing in God was not as important in believing in the validity of his (His?) message.
I think now that I was rather naive in thinking that. Being able to live up to Christian values relies on understanding what they mean, and being able to read them in context and decide which are worth living to and which are now redundant. Unfortunately fundamentalists are either too ignorant or too pig-headed to do this. I also dislike people who try and force their views on other people. It is disrespectful.
David
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
