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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Well, recently for a number of reasons I have taken a scholarly interest in pederasty as it existed in Ancient Greece and also as it is claimed to exist in modern forms ("Boylove" for want of a better word). Well, I went to the Uni library wanting to look up some books on the topic so I could form a more educated opinion rather than the knee-jerk reaction most people have to the issue (from both sides of the fence) and obviously wanting to be discrete I tried to use the self check-out desk.
Well, one book the library didn't have on record which meant it was reluctant to let itself be scanned- meaning I had to take it to the main desk and have the man there enter the full record into the computer system- Title: "The Age Taboo: Gay Male Sexuality, Power and Consent", Publisher: "The Gay Press". I could have tried blaming it on a thesis or research project but I didn't want to lie so I just kept quiet and was as discrete as I could be given the circumstances.
Anyway, then as I was trying to leave the library apparently I hadn't demagnitised the spine of one of the books properly so it beeped when I tried to leave, causing a DIFFERENT library staff member to come over and ask to see my books and the receipts of me checking them out. Well, in addition to the former one of the other books is titled "Sexual Experience Between Men and Boys" with others mentioning "Roman Homosexuality" and "Same Sex Union in Premodern Europe". Well, hopefully they thought it WAS for an assignment as I tried to keep up a professional manner and not blush despite my desire to crawl into my shoes, yet I still can't help but think that I should have just walked in and out of the library with a sign saying "gay paedophile" on both my front and back; it probably would have drawn less attention.
So far the reading has been very interesting and I will probably be making a topic about it or maybe even compiling my thoughts on the issue in a more essay form with formal quotes to back it up, etc. It is definitely a contentious issue, though and I hope everyone will be prepared for some serious NON-argumentative research-supported debate when and if I do post it.
One thing that does strike me though is that despite the fact that some of these books were written in the early 80s and even earlier than that- they write of a society that in reality is LITTLE different from now. In some areas gay liberation has progressed (gay marriage/ civil unions) but in other ways sexual liberation as a whole really has gone backwards! It is a pity that so many of the revolutionary changes from the 60s and 70s have been reversed by the more conservative and fiscally motivated 80s and 90s.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It seems this place will ever draw those that just have to press the button.........
It will never change........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The early eighties were far different from today. The hysteria about paedophiles that has led to bricks being thrown through paediatrician's windows was not evident. Child molesters were not seen in every schoolyard nor in every home. Schools had not become so paranoid that children are only allowed to be passed to an adult with a password.
And yet what all people have failed to realise is that mots abuse is in the home, either by a family member (and by no means always a male family member) or by a trusted friend of the family.
I hope your research will draw the careful distinction between mentoring a child, something involving affection in many cases, but no sexual contact, and the abuse of a child (whether that child is apparently willng or not) which may include all sorts of emotional and physical abuse including sexual practices.
You may also want to read http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030042.htm whcih is the UK law cobvering sexual misbehaviour between pretty much any class of indivisual as one framework for your thoughts
Part of the challenge is that people view men as "things attatched to a penis" and therefore liable to rape anyone at no provocation. While it is a digression one of us who posts infrequently was looking at fostering children. The precautions he woudl have had to take because he has a penis are amazing and absurd. but society calls for them
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hi Saben
I'd be really interested to hear what conclusions you come up with - please do let me know (off-group if that's more comfortable for you).
I've got a couple of specific reasons for my interest:
1. as you probably remember, I was the younger partner in a sexually abusive relationship while I was going through puberty, and one of the things that interests me is whether such relationships are inherently damaging, or whether it's (at least partly) the societal context that makes them so.
2. I studied sex/gender roles in some depth as part of my degree course (Anthropology, 1979-82), but this was an area that the rest of my tutorial groups (29 women, 2 men) were very uncomfortable getting into - as a result, I have have a pretty good understanding of the kinds of sex/gender roles and relationships that work in a variety of societies, but there is a big gap in this area. I've done a little reading, but coverage of the subject in non-western societies is very scarce ... and I hadn't really thought about historical western societies.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I have some books right now that seem rather pro-"boylove" and I want to read them as much as I want to read "anti-boylove" books. I want to approach this honestly and with open eyes. My current belief is that intergenerational relationships can occur without causing harm but that it is EASIER for abuse to occur in ANY sexual relationship where there is a power disparity (adult-child, professional-client, etc).
This might even end up proving the basis for postgraduate work in future years because the social and political background of age of consent is very interesting. The liberation of Youth is something that is very interesting- I do believe there needs to be more legal recognition of teenagers as being different to children; and being different to adults.
That being said I hope I am able to look at this in a positive way- I don't want to be seen as trying to justify having sex with boys. That is not my intention. What I want to explore is sexuality, because sexuality is almost ALWAYS linked to freedom- feminism, gay liberation and even to some degree opposition to racism are all linked to sex (in the latter case I am mostly referring to inter-racial sex as being indicative of the divide between people; it was largely- especially in places like South Africa- about maintaining the purity of culture and bloodlines which is rather sexual).
I want to look at pederasty in both an emotional mentoring context, as well as in a sexual context; and I want to look at them both as independent issues which share some commonality. I think that pederasty in a sexual context is a smaller part of the fight for youth rights, though. I would not support a decision to allow adults to have sex with pre-age of consent boys as much as I would support a decision to allow boys (and girls) to make up their own minds regarding sex and for that matter regarding employment and living arrangements more. I also feel however that as a legal adult I cannot be the champion of youth rights- it isn't my place to be- I'll just be seen as an adult fighting for the right to "abuse" boys. If it is an issue of Youth rights then it needs to be the Youth that fight against society in a constructive manner and it needs to be Youth that stop themselves from being having their rights stripped from them in the name of "protection". Because I do feel that parents have FAR too much control over their own children- especially when their children are teenagers. But while connected, that is kind of a seperate issue. And this is just opinion and bias. I want to put that opinion and bias on hold for a bit- too many on the so called "educated left" are as indoctrinated as the "conservative right"- the true scholar attempts (as futile as it may be) to look for objective answers. I will also be attempting that, we'll see where this little adventure leads me, I guess 
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In this exercise of yours I think you need to make a very definite distinction of age. There are at least four very clear groups of yoing people, intellectually more. Let me brain dump:- Infants until about 7/8 years old
- 7/8 years to dawn of puberty
- Passing through puberty. This tends to be anywhere from 12 to 16/17
- Quasi Adult (ie not lawful adults, but post puberty
And this gives you a challenge. The terms "boylove" and "girllove" are generally held to mean "A child were there is no physical evidence of puberty." And organisations like the Rene Guyn Society whose motto is "Sex by age eight, or it's too late!" They are a marvelous group of people who are pushing for laws to allow men to have sex with girls as young as ten, and believe in child-adult sex starting at age 4, 5, and 6 as long as the little ones are protected by having the adult wear a condom. (please note my sarcasm here. This quote is taken from http://www.iainmurray.org/MT/archives/000260.html - not authoritatve, but it warrants research on your part)
So which groups are appropriate for an adult to have sex with?
And is it different if the adult is 18? Or if the adult is 25? or if the adult is 30? Where does it become inappropriate? or is it already inappropriate?
People have tried to argue for many years that an adult having a sexual realtionship with a child is a good thing. Interestingly one sees precious little of this argument put forward by children.
Thinking purely geometrically, a child is small. An adult is large. Any penetration of the child by an adult, whether penile or digital penetration is likely to cause physical damage.
Thinking emotionally "I thought all parents did this with their children" is something often heard by those investigating allegedly loving but abusive relationships. I find that an unpalatable thought.
"Children are sexual beings". And this is true. But, please, with people of their own age and size. And do note that in the UK even "mothers and fathers" is now illegal.
As the child becomes older and physically mature people tend to see it as a miniature adult. And it may well be. But it is miniature in all factes of its being. Ask the children we have here if they want sex with adults. And I mean those under 18. I do not imagine you will get a resounding "yes" vote.
And do not confuse "youth rights" with the real rights of children, which include the right to be unmolested emotionally physically or sexually.
Parents have control over their children for a reason. Perhaps that control lasts too many years, but the reason is to protect them from harm. A good parent releases the control gradually as the child ages. And it is hard to do, because you have to watch as they graze their knees, knowing that they are about to graze them.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> In this exercise of yours I think you need to make a very definite distinction of age. There are at least four very clear groups of yoing people, intellectually more. Let me brain dump:
Infants until about 7/8 years old
7/8 years to dawn of puberty
Passing through puberty. This tends to be anywhere from 12 to 16/17
Quasi Adult (ie not lawful adults, but post puberty
And this gives you a challenge. The terms "boylove" and "girllove" are generally held to mean "A child were there is no physical evidence of puberty."
""I don't know where you come up with that assesment.""
> So which groups are appropriate for an adult to have sex with?
>
> And is it different if the adult is 18? Or if the adult is 25? or if the adult is 30? Where does it become inappropriate? or is it already inappropriate?
""It becomes inappropriate when the line of legal age of concent is crossed.""
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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""It becomes inappropriate when the line of legal age of concent is crossed.""
but that line differs from country to country, state to state, culture to culture. clearly different people have a different idea as to where that line should lie.
in some places, 21, in some 18, in some 16. and so on. are any of those wrong? are any of them right? what is so different about the 21yr old who can't to the same person in another country where he can?
i personally don;t believe there should be a line at all... a scale is a better way of judging...
saben, explain the japanese system (you can do it better than me) thats the one that uses a sliding scale of years up to 17 isn't it?
some children,even when they cross the line, are not ready, others before they cross. different people mature at different rates, and a single arbitary line often based on no relevant information or data is hardly the best way to assess that.
am i suddenly mature enough to make decisions about sex the minute i cross my 16th birthday, especially as if i flew out to america, i would suddenly be illegal again (i think) but if i carried on flying to australia, would become legal once more.
its a fact that the british CPS will not prosecute a boy (15) of consensual sex with a girl (15). its "not in the public interest to do so" this is of course, not the case where there is no consent. this is despite the law clearly stating that in such a situation the boy is guilty of committing rape of a child under 16, contrary to section blah (76 i think) of the sexual offences act 2003.
is what they have done any less right than if they had both waited 6 months? the law doesn't think so... the lawyers seem to realise that children do, and should be allowed to experiment without interference.
the law will, more crucially carry on to make prosecution exceptions where both parties consent even when one party is above and the other is not. a 15 and 17 year old would not get prosecuted.
but where does this policy stop? a 15 and a 40 year old certainly would.
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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True, there are differences from region to region as far as the age of concent is concerned I never disputed that point.
I do however know that each social structure makes their rules and laws for their own reasons as well as to appease the wishes of the populace within their jurisdiction. Each jurisdictional limits must be adhered to in each area. It is purely a matter of law.
If you live in an area where the legal age is 18 and you must (for whatever reason) insist on porking kids younger than what the law deems appropriate then the option to relocate to an area of proper porking protocol is present.
As for being near the age of concent.... well either the scenerio is legal or it is not...... there is NO almost enough.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Actually the cponcept of relocation to avoid a higher age of consent is specifically outlawed under Uk law. Of course this only applies when you move back to the uk
I do like the concept of a "porking protocol" though
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I am not disgareeing with you regarding the facts of the law and the age of consent.
What I want him to do is to look at the whole thing without regard to ages of consent. I want him to consider why ages of consent are chosen, and thus to start with a blank canvas, and to determine what, from his researches, is right.
Interestingly he may well conclude different ages of consent are valid. But I think he will conclude that some sort of barrier to activity is required. Let's allow him to reach his own conclusions. We know there is a law. But he is hypothesising and researching. While advising him in real life to stay within the law, let;s see what comes of this intellectually.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I am trying to look for an objective value, if such a thing exists. I am trying to look for a social liberal philosophy that exists outside of law and applies equally across all humans regardless of cultural or social background. The law will probably only play a small part in my conclusions although I believe that EVERYONE should follow the socially constructed laws of where they live regardless of how wrong those laws may be (I do not support Malaysians having gay sex at all, ever because that is illegal- what I do support is legal reform and education so people aren't opposed to homosexual acts).
I understand you have very stong opinions about this issue, Marc and I don't want it to seem like I am trying to justify a certain course of action. I know you have had experiences that I know nothing of, they colour your view just as the experiences I have had colour my view. If you want to contact me privately and tell me of why you feel the way you do I'd appreciate that and take it into consideration; similarly if it is something that is too personal or hurtful then I appreciate your right to privacy. As much as this may be an ideological argument there are a lot of practical experiences of different people that need to be taken into account, too. Pragmaticism is every bit as important as ideology.
From my reading so far one of the main points that has stood out is as follows:
Men who engage in sex with "boys" are abusing the boys due to the power disparity in the relationship. Men and boys can never have an equal relationship because the man not only has more power, but also is able to take away any power the boy does have.
Society making rules prohibiting boys from having sex in certain situations are also taking power from boys by declaring them unable to make up their own mind. Society forcing laws onto children is just as much an abuse of the power adults have over youth as exists in a sexual relationship between an adult and a minor.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What you fail to see is that the canvas is not by any means blank. Lines have been drawn, the issues have been drawn over.
His research may come up with conclusions and even perhaps hypothesies but what ever he determines as far as right and wrong will be purely conjecture on his part. Even if his conclusions match todays standards as far as the legal limits of AOC they will still have to stand alone because they are the opinions of one person.
This subject seems to pop up here about every six months or so and the same issues seem to get dragged through the meat grinder again and again.
I just want to understand why so many questions and arguments advocating relationships that cross the line of concent keep popping up? From my experience in the class room, questions of this nature tend to arise in order to justify something to the questioner... i.e. either as one who was seduced or one who is justifying seduction.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That something is adjudged to be "correct" doe snot mean that people should not challenge accepted correctness for themselves.
While this is wholly different in nature from the example I am about to use, that practice was once judged to be correct, but was proven not to be. Before I mention it I will state clearly that I believe that laws are made for a purpose and that we elect our lawmakers and delegate responsibility to them for the creation and administration of the laws under which we choose to be governed. I believe that AN age of consent is a good concept. I have my doubts about a "black and white age limit" and prefer intellectually a sliding scale.
The example I choose that was once seen as correct is the slavery of one human being by another. This was accepted and considered to be morally correct. Until it was challenged. Do not, please, mistake this example for a desire to abolish an age of consent.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Many laws have been on the books and changed over the years to accomodate current moral trends. The vote for women, interracial marriges, the volstade act to name just a few.... But what does that have to do with formulating a moral justification for the participation of minors in sexual acts?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I would say that, should it be possible to create such a moral justification, and should that justification persuade lawmakers that it has sufficient merit, then that justification should be used to overturn the current law.
I think hell will freeze over first. And if hell shows any sign of freezing over I will be there with a fan heater.
The study is legitimate. Why not let's see what answers he comes up with?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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To chalenge the accepted correctness of a law is one thing...... to chalenge the accepted correctness of it to the detrement and expence of innocent minors quite is another.
This is not a situation where justification by adults can be deemed proper... It is not they that end up trapped it is the younger of the equasion.
For a moral conclusion to be reached in Sabens quest for an answer he must superimpose himself to the view of the younger person. To do this without the experiences and knowledge of his present years would not be an easy task if indeed it is possible at all. This seems to go far beyond the normal scope of objectivity.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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One thing that strikes me from Ancient Greece is the disconnects in the reports of activities at the time.
I see twin threads:- It was allegedly a taboo for an older man to penetrate in any way his younger charge. The relationship was said to be and meant to be one of mentor and youth. Even so it is stated somewhere I cannot find that the boys lay face down on the sand and then rose. The imprint of their genitals on the sand was viewed to be in some way important in choosing the youth. And, if sex acts took place, they were alleged to be frottage, not penetration.
It was frowned upon if the relationship lasted beyoind the youth of the younger person, for overyt homosexuality was not approved of. And that makes me wonder about Sparta and the alleged army of gay partners. - A symposium was originally a male only party where serious drinking took place. It has been written that fathers sought to present their pubertal sons at these events almost as a gift to the host and to the assembled attendees, and that sexual pleasures, including penetration, took place
In today's morality (1) seems to be "good" except for the sexual acts and genital imprints, and (2) seems to be abhorrent.
(1) with its sexual acts is not self consistent, though appears to form our impression of Ancient Greece today, and (2) is never spoken of and feels like a major abuse, though features on a vase! Indeed a well known major IT consultancy company is running a Symposium in Barcelona as I write this, with several thousand attendees and doutbless no naked boys in sight! It holds such events worldwide twice a year!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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