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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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As the perpetrators of the London incident start to turn out to be islamic fundamentalist British citizens with no links to terrorism known I want to make the point, please, that this board tolerates all races, creeds and orientations. I would not like us to even consider, and I am sure we will not consider, singling any group of people for abuse.
[Updated on: Tue, 12 July 2005 21:37]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually,
The thought had not even occured to me until you briught it up.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Apart from homophobes and stupid people, some of which make up pretty sizeable communities...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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never works, though. Abuse someone and they resist. Talk to them and they still resist, but you may just make some headway
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I am sure that these men, like the ones of the 9/11 attack, had in their minds, very good reasons to kill over 3000 innocent New Yorker's, and over 50 Londoner's. I for one will not jump to conclusions and call these Martyrs for their religious beliefs , cruel, heartless and uncareing bastards without one redeeming quality. Nor will I celebrate them as do their likeminded brothers of the faith. I will keep my thoughts to myself, and not ask how the hate preached to them could be tolerated in countrys so protective of their people. Everyone knows what's been going on for years. Should any religion that preaches the murder of innocents be protected under a freedom of religion right? Should the citizens not be informed of the danger in their midst without the law saying you're spreading hate toward potential killers? I fear this old man has riled the waters again, but those that hate us are killing us with our kindness.
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Uncle Jim wrote:
> >I will keep my thoughts to myself, and not ask how the hate preached to them could be tolerated in countrys so protective of their people. Everyone knows what's been going on for years. Should any religion that preaches the murder of innocents be protected under a freedom of religion right?
OK, deep beath. Keep calm.
Jim, do you actually KNOW any Muslims? Have you ever actually spoken to one?
Let me tell you what comes to *my* mind when I think of the Muslims I know and have known. Just some of them ...
I think of my last boss. When I warned him that "my work might be below par for a couple of weeks, as I'd just split up with my boyfiend of 12 years", he asked me if I wanted time off work, or preferred to keep myself occupied. Then he put his arm round me and let me burst into tears all over him. He has never since referred to that day in word or deed - I'm sure he thinks it would embarass me - but I shall never forget the human compassion he showed.
I think of two of my staff who got married a couple of years ago. He is an Irish Catholic, she is a British Asian Muslim, at that point a single mother due to the failure of an arranged marriage. They now have her kid, another wonderful kid, and one on the way. When the kids were sick, on a day when the two of them were due to be the only people in the office (as the other staff were on a training course), they rang some of our casual staff to arrange cover before they rang me to ask if it would be OK for both of them to be off ... showing a level of consideration that I wish everyone at work would emulate!
I think of the guys who run the corner shop I visit every day. OK, they're not terribly observant Muslims, cos they do have the odd smoke or drink during daylight in Ramadhan, but that's cool. I'm not a terribly observant christian, either. I have no idea if the guys are lovers, cousins, or whatever: they clearly care for each other, and are always friendly, cheerful and helpful. And between them work 0800 to 2300 7 days a week including Christmas Day.
I think of the Muslim lad in the campsite in Herat (Afghanistan) in 1977, who had such a charming smile, who was so helpful in getting hold of washing powder for clothes and suchlike (in spite of not having a single word of each others language), and who joined me in the shower one evening to our mutual enjoyment ... I guess he was around 18 and I was 22, and sometimes words are not needed. Indeed, I think of all those who exemplified the Muslim duty of hospitality to strangers and travellers in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Turkey, while I was travelling the "hippy trail"
and so many, many, more members of the Muslim faith who have touched my life in some way with care and compassion and tenderness.
To judge Islam by the actions of an extremist minority is as insulting as judging Christianity by the actions of those curently attempting to brainwash Zach in Memphis.
And to condemn all Muslims, when British Muslims are among the injured and dead, and their families and many Londoners are still grieving, is unforgiveable. To do in a place where there may well be young Gay Muslims lurking on the sidelines, trying to deal with issues of sexual, social, and religious identity at the same time, is unconscionable. Because of your words and actions, I can no longer feel comfortable referring people to this Forum.
You have several times indicated that you feel hated. You have several times inplied that you feel Americans are percieved unjustly. Your crude anti-Muslim joke a few days ago, and your post tonight, came very close to making me feel real animosity towards you. However, that won't colour my friendship with a number of your compatriots. I trust you see the parallel in the risks of judging any country or faith by its most bigoted and extremist adherents.
But, as you have seen fit to disregard timmy's reminder about the standards he expects on this site, perhaps you can accept my own breach of the netiquette. For, while I do not hate you, Sir, you disgust me. Unutterably.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Uncle Jim wrote:
>>Should any religion that preaches the murder of innocents be protected under a freedom of religion right? Should the citizens not be informed of the danger in their midst without the law saying you're spreading hate toward potential killers?<<
Hear Hear! Well said! And I now propose that people be protected from Christianity, which during its 2000 year history has managed to murder more innocents in the name of religion than any other faith known to man.
But now I must retract my approval because I know that one should never judge the philosophy by the philosopher. So let's not allow the teachings of Jesus to be judged by the lights of Torquemada and his henchmen, nor the teachings of Muhammad by hate-filled terrorists.
Statements such as that made by "Uncle Jim" are not less hate-filled because they masquerade in a mantle of piety or patriotism. That's what the bombers in Istanbul, Madrid, London, Jerusalem and Netanya did as well.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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As a matter of fact I live among quite a population of Muliums in the Glendale area in California. Those I know dispise what a few have been doing and accept the fact that a few of their Mullas teach and preach a form of their religion completely foreign to theirs, which embraces love and acceptance.
I did not condemn all Muslims, I spoke only of those men responsible for these acts of terror and those that filled their heads with such hate. I'm sure your friends are as wonderful as mine and I do enjoy their company and food. We've had many discussions over glasses of diet Mountain Dew on how to separate to good guys from the bad guys. First you have to except that there are bad guys of a certain religion, a very small segment, who's hate for infidels is painting everyone of that faith with a broad brush. My friends wish that more of their teachers would repudiate
those teaching hate, but the fear of retaliation runs deep.
My post of a few days back was not anit-muslim, it was anti-terrorist, as in "terrorists, who hate our guts and want to kill us". That does not discribe my friends.
I'm sorry I disgust you so, but if you would read my posts more carefully and not turn a "few" into "all", and give me credit for knowing a variety of people, and finding good in most, if not all, (we are after all one of the world's melting pots) who knows, that utter disgust might turn into just a seething dislike....but, whatever makes you happy NW.
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Uncle Jim wrote:
> I did not condemn all Muslims, I spoke only of those men responsible for these acts of terror and those that filled their heads with such hate. >
> My post of a few days back was not anit-muslim, it was anti-terrorist, as in "terrorists, who hate our guts and want to kill us". That does not discribe my friends. >
>
Yeah. Right. Whatever. That's why your last post said
> "Everyone knows what's been going on for years. Should any religion that preaches the murder of innocents be protected under a freedom of religion right? Should the citizens not be informed of the danger in their midst without the law saying you're spreading hate toward potential killers?"
My position is unchanged.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess we now know why most queers don't go into politics.......
They just can not take part a discussion of politics or religion without it becoming personal.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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JFR said: "And I now propose that people be protected from Christianity, which during its 2000 year history has managed to murder more innocents in the name of religion than any other faith known to man."
Here Here, Well said...so let's have a killing spree to correct the wrongs of years gone by. It should be easy, the "Christians" were such good record keepers. Should we go in alphabetical order with those religions that have yet to murder at least two million. I want to be fair and politically correct and have an unbiased counting board...maybe made up of atheists, does that sound fair? Let's not allow the teachings of Jesus or any other philosophy espousing love of your fellow man to keep us from the task of balancing the scales with blood. We have some native Americans that might want to get in on this. Should we make it an "Open" to include all, or an "Invational" to keep the riff-raff out.
By the way I do hate terrorists and thought there would no doubt of that from my post. I hate all terrorists who pray on the innocent. I know we will get hit hard again and many more of us will die, but I can't bring myself to love or excuse the loathsome killers.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Regrettably this is precisely the behaviour I wanted to avoid.
So let me be crystal clear on this. fire this gun one more time and you will be asked very firmly and very politely to leave here.
I want you to be very clear that I will not under any circumstances tolerate what I can only describe as "this behaviour", whether you feel it to be justified or not.
As to the inevitable innocently asked question "What did I do?" the answer is that you did as any brattish child would do. Faced with a request not to do something you decided to both do it and to dress your doing of it up in such a way as to look innocent.
This board is not the place for this rubbish. I will not tolerate it in my front room and I will not tolerate it on my website.
[Updated on: Thu, 14 July 2005 07:19]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Was akin to someone lighting a spark and then waiting for another to arrive with the can of gasoline to put it out.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Well it does have the same effect as a sign "Wet Paint" if one is strange enough to need to touch it. And all except one person took it at face value, that the paint was indeed wet.
It is really very simple. I put up a warning.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Not I to be sure.......
I just am far too aware of what happens when I state my opinion......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc, I'll tell you what happens when you state your opinion: it is read with interest and respect.
Anybody can see that Timmy's warning had NOTHING to do with you or your opinions.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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JFR wrote:
> Marc, I'll tell you what happens when you state your opinion: it is read with interest and respect. ((snip))
I second that. I've said before (eg 22nd May) that I value your views, even if - indeed perhaps because - we do not always agree and I often find your positions challenging.
And if you feel perhaps that I have not always managed to treat you with respect or fairness, you have my unreserved apologies, and my assurance that such was not my intention.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My point was that posts (such as the one that began this thread) do little to stem the tide of opinion. As soon as this thread hit the message board I knew where it was heading.
Once it was visible there was no stopping it.
It would be easier to sop up the atlantic ocean with a tampax than alter the mounting pile of opinion (read shit here) that resulted in exactly what Tim was "reminding" us of.
That being said.... If I placed my opinion of terror based activity here screens would melt as the words came into view.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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nowhere have I said "do not have a heated opinion against terrorists". All I have said and will say often is that the terrorists do not represent the majority of the people they purport to represent, and thus we must not tar those people with the same brush as the terrorists.
The Irish, for example, protestant and catholic alike, are a decent people. We do not villify those of Irish descent, nor do we villify catholics because of the IRA. Instead we villify the terrorists.
When we get an incident from another area we tend to villify the people of the same faith or nation. It is patently unfair and unwanted. An example was the alleged joke about islamic headgear that I had to remove.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That being the case......
I do not understand why you placed a warning to Jim.
I read and reread and reread his (so called) offending post and it refered only to terrorists and the religous zealots that incite them.
His post did nothing to bring the general Islamic population under a microscope of scrutiny.
I am at a loss to understand this...................
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Perhaps I may refer you to Julius Caesar, By William Shakespeare. The "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him" speech, where the speaker is saying precisely what was said by saying the reverse of it.
So the "I will not say ............." actually says "it" while saying "it" will not be said.
[Updated on: Fri, 15 July 2005 10:56]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Anything can be twisted and formed to fit into a pidgeon hole.
How about just reading the words?
How about taking things at face value and leaving them at that?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
>>Anything can be twisted and formed to fit into a pidgeon [sic] hole.>How about just reading the words? How about taking things at face value and leaving them at that?<<
Oh, Marc. There is an old Jewish saying: "Just let your ears hear what your mouth has said!"
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I guess that means I should just shut the f**k up.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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I guess I should too...
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FORMAL WARNING - Uncle Jim 
