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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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The "North Korea is Great Fun" thread, or rather my reaction to it, seems to have started this mess. Timmy and perhaps many of the other members, find the video Timmy posted, "amusing, awesome and hilarious". It was not a problem that it offended Americans that frequent this board. Specifically, Jim and I, and possibly others. We are Americans, just people, not a religion, so I guess all those things you guys talked about, don't apply.
I'm just wondering why a comment made about someone's head covering, was so horrible...and a video that repeatedly said "F*ck the USA", over and over..is not horrible? I guess if you are not FROM the USA, and you DESPISE the USA, then a video that says "F*ck the USA" is really not so bad..and what's the big deal about it anyway, right? Perspective is everything I guess.
I do want to say one thing, though. Uncle Jim, or Jim, is just about one of the finest people you would ever want to meet. I'm saddened by how he has been treated here. So, I guess you can all attack me now.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I wondered the same thing....
After all..... the sheets are little.... and they are worn on the head....
It is simple math.
So if the shoe (read little sheet for the head) fits then wear it.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Shawn, welcome back. I certainly will not attack you. I was not able to see the video that you mention: I couldn't download it. So I didn't take part in that discussion.
I don't think anyone despises the USA or its people. I certainly don't! But I do think that there is much to despise in some of the attitudes and postulations of its present government - but that is another matter.
There is a great difference in making ridicule of an ephemeral administration which will eventually pass from this world and ridiculing a whole race of decent people because of the despicable actions of a few of them.
HUGS
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Shawn wrote:
>
> I do want to say one thing, though. Uncle Jim, or Jim, is just about one of the finest people you would ever want to meet. I'm saddened by how he has been treated here. So, I guess you can all attack me now.
I feel he was treated unfaifrly as well.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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I think if you are put down, or ridiculed, hated or despised...it matters little whether it was because of race, religion, or NATIONALITY...I think it probably feels the same...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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This is really very simple
Shawn wrote:
> The "North Korea is Great Fun" thread, or rather my reaction to it, seems to have started this mess. Timmy and perhaps many of the other members, find the video Timmy posted, "amusing, awesome and hilarious". It was not a problem that it offended Americans that frequent this board. Specifically, Jim and I, and possibly others. We are Americans, just people, not a religion, so I guess all those things you guys talked about, don't apply.
The USA is a proud nation, made up from many peoples of many backgrounds. It is prone to taking itself rather too seriosuly, as the Dixie Chicks found out when they criticised the Iraq war. Nonethless the video has many of the same characteristics of South Park, The Movie's "Blame Canada" song. No-one, surely, took "Blame Canada" seriously. It seemns that several US Citizens took grave offence at the (allegedly) North Korean video.
Nonetheless the sole nation who comes out of that video badly is North Korea.
What would be interesting is to find who did make the video. If it were not North Korea, who was it and what was their purpose?
> I'm just wondering why a comment made about someone's head covering, was so horrible...and a video that repeatedly said "F*ck the USA", over and over..is not horrible? I guess if you are not FROM the USA, and you DESPISE the USA, then a video that says "F*ck the USA" is really not so bad..and what's the big deal about it anyway, right? Perspective is everything I guess.
The comment was likely to incite racial hatred under new legislation we have in the UK. Again I am not sure whether it is a statute yet or whether it is about to be one. In either case, in a similar manner to naked pictures of under 18 year old models being made suddenly unlawful to have, this post was advised to me as potentially unlawful.
I do not hold with either positive or negative discrimination. I would have been content that the post has remained had it been more general, that is had it not been aimed at muslims.
> I do want to say one thing, though. Uncle Jim, or Jim, is just about one of the finest people you would ever want to meet. I'm saddened by how he has been treated here. So, I guess you can all attack me now.
This is not about whether this gentleman is a fine man or not a fine man. It is about behaviours exhibited. The behaviour exhibited was one that had been specifically ~ prohibited is a strong word ~ requested be not exhibited. Once it was exhibited my own request left me very little choice.
We have just had a post from a Mormon lad. What if there were a Muslim lad who was now too scared to post, and who went on to harm himslef?
I am not perfect. Far from it. But I try my best to be as good as I can be.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
>
Shawn wrote:
> > I do want to say one thing, though. Uncle Jim, or Jim, is just about one of the finest people you would ever want to meet. I'm saddened by how he has been treated here. So, I guess you can all attack me now.
>
> This is not about whether this gentleman is a fine man or not a fine man. It is about behaviours exhibited. The behaviour exhibited was one that had been specifically ~ prohibited is a strong word ~ requested be not exhibited. Once it was exhibited my own request left me very little choice.
>
The thing is, Jim's reply did not in any way generalize. It was made specific to terrorists and the islamic fanatics that recruit them.
Sorry Tim but you are wrong here.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Shawn wrote:
> I think if you are put down, or ridiculed, hated or despised...it matters little whether it was because of race, religion, or NATIONALITY...I think it probably feels the same...
Shawn, I'd have to agree with that.
And if you feel that I have unintentionally put you down for any of the above reasons I am extremely sorry.
I tried very hard to make it clear that I was talking about an economic/geo-political entity, rather than people, when talking about "America"
In exactly the same way, I am happy to talk about the merits or otherwise of religious belief, or indeed Christianity, as social phenomena. When I do so, I don't feel that anyone who takes the position that Christianity has had an overall opressive effect is attacking me personally (although I do self-identify as Christian).
It may seem a very minor semantic point, but is clearly a major difference between our cultures. As an example, a previous poster said " the Brit's didn't notice offences that Hitler was committing in Germany", which I found hard to handle, as some of my family quite defintely did notice. However, if the poster had said "..Britain didn't notice ..." I would have wholeheartedly agreed with the statement.
I would love to be able to explore the reasons for these different world-views, but this forum is - as Marc has pointed out - clearly not the place to do so.
And if I have offended you, or caused you to feel "put down, or ridiculed, hated or despised", I hope you can accept that it was because of this cultural difference, rather than through any deliberate intention on my part.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Uncle Jim wrote
>Everyone knows what's been going on for years. Should any religion that preaches the murder of innocents be protected under a freedom of religion right? Should the citizens not be informed of the danger in their midst without the law saying you're spreading hate toward potential killers?
This is aimed at a religion specifically and with precision. It is also factually incorrect. It is calculated to stir up hatred. The warning stands
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That is of course the way you see it.
I never expected you to recant your position.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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I do not want to continue to beat this dead horse, but Timmy something you said just occurred to me too, but in a different way.
I wonder how many young troubled AMERICAN boys drifted through here and read the posts. The Anti-American slant to things. I'm sorry NW, I have a hard time with the geo-political thing, and I'm 25. I can only imagine how it would seem to a sixteen year old.
I wonder if even two years ago I would have had the nerve to ask for help among titles such as "I Despise America" or "What's So Hateful About America",? No, I wouldn't have. Or what if he had read further...or looked at the hilarious video? It isn't only muslim boys that might be frightened away here.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You have one hell of a point there.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I was not keen on the headline "I despise America" either. There is a difference, though, between despising something and attacking something.
OK, hackles down, because I just know you are going to say that the video attacks America. And so it does. But it attacks it in such a way that it is laughable.
The messages under "I despise America" had a reasoned set of details. That does not mean I agree with them, nor does it mean I enjoyed the headline. But it was not a headline attacking America.
It is reasonable to say "I despise Christians". That does not incite hatred of them. In the same way despising America does not incite hatred of the nation. It doesn't make the headline pleasing to read, but it is patently one opinion by one person.
One my "Despise Muslims, Jews, Hindus" without inciting relgious hatred. In the case of Jews, who are a people as well as a religion one does not incite racial hatred either. It is not pleasant to read, but it does not incite.
By contrast the post I warned about was deliberately worded and carefully designed.
Now, that aoprt, would it have stopped an American boy from posting?
The answer is that we have no idea. But we do know that an American boy did post after it. The difference, though, is important. I can cope with your despising my roots. I feel very different if you aim an attack at them.
So, let me make it perosnal. Through baptised christian and having no maternal judaism, thus not being jewish, my roots are half in Viennese judaism, and half in solidly apathetic British protestantism. You may despise either or both sides of my heritage with pleasure. It upsets me not at all. But attack the Viennese Jews at your peril because I take offence.
Howevrr, if you produce a video of the same laughable standard as the alleged North Korean rubbish and I will laugh at it, because it does not attack me, even if it was designed to attack me. I see it for what it is: laughable.
Now posts despising Viennese Jewry will not prevent me from posting. Posts attacking them just might.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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My point was not to try and take your opinion away from you....just to try and make you see that everyone doesn't have the same opinion. The video, in your opinion is harmless, so it's harmless. I strongly disagree. But Jim's post offended you, it's gone. The video offended me, it's still here. Do you understand at all what I'm trying to say? I keep seeing things referring to how easily we Americans are offended and not to take things so personal....I am offended by that. I feel as though, you and some of the others are talking down to us, "easily offended Americans". Anyway..enough said. I'm not trying to stir things up, just trying to make you understand another perspective, I can see that I failed with that, but I had to try.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Jim's post has not gone because it offended me.
Jim's post has gone because I was advised that it was now or would be soon unlawful.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Without a doubt.... I believe we are "talked down to" regularly.
Jim's so called offensive post was paraphrased. The entire paragraph is what was written and should be read as such.
It is wrong to pick and choose phrases to make a point other than that which the author intended.
But "we" are not the powers that be and therefore must tollerate it.
So life goes on.........................
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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TygerBoiSammy
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57
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Shawn, i know this might upset u to read, and i ask that you take a moment to consider how i feel as i say this stuff.
On the morning of September 11, 2001 my father flew out of Boston's Logan airport. He is a pilot and was going to pick up a route out of Chicago. I think we all know what happened that fateful day. For 4 days, we didn't know if my father was alive or dead. I wasn't quite 12 yet.
Having said that, and having one tear slide out of my eye at remembering that dark day, I am forced to say that there are many out there that take a dim view of our nation. I'm not entirely sure why you are angry about that post. I know it stirred many emotions in me as well. I know that maybe it was a call for equal time, or a feeling of outrage, that maybe things were badly represented, or that there is a cultural slant in that vid that makes American's like us look bad.
Fact is, people hate. Often without good reasons. In our own country we have neo-nazis, black supremacists, gangs with every possible racial hatred you can imagine, political action groups that despise public policies that help minorities, religious autocratic wannabees that swell the ignorance of the truly faithful for their own twisted agendas and even rival parties that are so alike in nature as to be different in action and condemn one another for such similar differences.
My point is simply this: i'd rather know who my enemies are than to worry about having equal time to debate them. Perhaps the North Korea thing has a humorous side to those of us who don't feel threatened by it. Perhaps we should take that time to look at the fools that produced it and laugh at their stupidity. Or maybe we should feel sorry that they can't find the things about our country that are good and noble still.
I love my country, Shawn. My father was a pilot in the Navy for over 30 years. My Brother died as a pilot for the Coast Guard, helping people. I myself am in a life and death struggle with cancer. These are difficult times, all around the world. I have seen the good and the bad, and I am very concerned. I want the world I'm fighting to stay in to be a better world than the one we were all handed. It is not easy to give up hate, sometimes. There are those who have earned my hate, through their own actions. I feel pity for those that can't surrender hate, who can't laugh at those that laugh at us. I don't say these things in anger or without consideration.
I don't consider this to be a board that has anti-american feeling to it. I think it is a board that considers the world as a whole. I feel it is a board where we gotta learn to acknowledge what others say for it's true value, laugh a little, cry a little, and come to an understanding. I am an american kid, and I have to say, it's refreshing to know that there are gay kids all over the world that are just as scared and worried and emotionally attached to this world as I am, and that they feel the same things I do, despite what our governments do to each other in the light of day and then change in the dark of night.
I am an american kid, and while i know there are dangers out there, i know that at least at one place I can find some common ground, even with those that despise me on one level. I say let them despise me until they know me, and then let my actions speak loudest.
Let me say one more thing, then my sugar rush will end and I'll sit back and take whatever abuse comes my way and smile. As much as this place is for kids who have questions, need someone to talk to or just generally need to feel part of something, it's also for you grown-ups. We need your perspectives, your advice, your attention at times, your counsel. We need to know and benefit from your expereince. But that goes both ways. I think at times you forget what it was like to be a kid. You might have forgotten how terrified you were to come out to your friends, or your families. You might have forgotten that acceptance isn't always easy to find. Or you just plain may not want to remember that just because you were once young that doesn't mean you were without thoughts of your own. Shawn, I value your ideals and your contributions here. I ask that you don't overlook them, or what we're all here for. A little acceptance from each other starts with a little respect given. Those of us American kids who are here need to know our American elders here are always willing to listen to us, even when we can't make sense of stuff. After all, who are we going to trust if we can't trust each other?
Hugs, Shawn. Hugs.
Tyger
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Shawn
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Toe is in the water |
Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69
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Sammy, you are a truly exceptional young man. You are wise beyond your years and your wisdom is tempered with kindness and compassion for others. Thank you for sharing your feelings.
Hugs
Shawn
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Re: Some thoughts 
