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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Well, not all of it. But tell me, has anyone noted what happened in Neph's latest story?
It is highly relevant to church views onhomosexuality
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Nope......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I'm going to start you off with: http://www.whosoever.org/bible/lev18.html
Now this is a biased view of the book of Leviticus, biased in the gay man's favour. So I place it here in the knowledge that it is biased, and hoping that further contributions may come. It was simply the top result in my google search
The two verses are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.
Neph's "Pilgrim's Progress" provides an insight into the way modern judaism is starting to discuss this set of matters. http://keshetrabbis.org/resources.html has at least one interesting paper, too, albeit technical. Well worth deciphering, though.
Now I know I am beating the jewish drunm here. I am doing it because three religions sprang from Abraham, so it is said. Two of those religions are very harsh in their condemnation of homosexuality. It appears that the "base religion" of judaism is not.
I htink we can do this without a "religious debate". I am very aware that hackles could be raised if we are not restrained. But have we ever asked ourselves "Why does (our/the) church have so much trouble with the concept of homosexual men?"
The very pragmatic solution Neph writes about look sot me to be a glimmer of light in a dogma based darkness. And frankly I also like the story
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
Neph's "Pilgrim's Progress" provides an insight into the way modern judaism is starting to discuss this set of matters. http://keshetrabbis.org/resources.html has at least one interesting paper, too, albeit technical. Well worth deciphering, though.
Which paper are you referring to? I checked there and there are many papers.
three religions sprang from Abraham, so it is said. Two of those religions are very harsh in their condemnation of homosexuality. It appears that the "base religion" of judaism is not.
Hmmm. The general animus of traditional Judaism is against homosexual activities, though many orthodox streams "welcome the sinner but not the sin". But only a couple of weeks ago we noted on this Message Board that a Pride Parade in Jerusalem had been marred by an assault with a knife by an ultra-orthodox fanatic on three participants. The Reform stream in Judaism is officially absolutely gay friendly; the Conservative stream (between orthodoxy and Reform) is valiantly struggling with the issue - as the site of Keshet Rabbis shows.
As regards your main question about Christianity: I am not qualified to express an informed opinion.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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The one I favour is "Dear David". It is heavy weather to read, and you need to persevere. But it seems to have a resonance. Of course it was the top one on the list, so I dived in out of curiosity. I won;t say "I was hooked", but there was enough to encourage me onwards. I did rather skip over some of the harder parts, though
While this element below is hard, it is relevant. Neph seems to have picked up this element in his tale.
BEGINS
(i) Basic prohibitions
I Male Homosexuals
The term used in our classical sources to denote the major homosexual prohibition of the Torah is mishkav zakhur,משכב זכור [Berakhot 43b, Shabbat 17b, 149b, Sukkah 29a, Kiddushin 82a, Avodah Zarah 36b, Niddah 13b]. This term is now loosely understood as being the equivalent of "homosexuality", but this is quite erroneous. Mishkav zakhur refers to one specific act alone and to no other. The Written Torah specifically prohibits mishkav zakhur twice:
ואת-זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הוא
You shall not copulate with a man as one copulates with a woman: it is an abomination. [Leviticus 18]
ואיש אשר ישכב את-זכר משכבי אשה תועבה עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם
If a man copulates with another male as one copulates with a woman, both of them have acted abominably; they shall be put to death...[Leviticus 20]
In modern times as well, this quasi anatomical definition is accepted. Here is part of a responsum by (Ultra-Orthodox) Rabbi Dr Mordechai Halperin, MD [Shaarei Tzedek Hospital (Shlesinger Institute for Medical Halacha), Israel. 1999]:
Mishkav zakhur, which is one of the worst עבירות averot [sins] in the Torah, refers to penetrative anal sex only. Make all your efforts, use all your כוחות הנפש koĥot ha-nefesh [spiritual powers], to keep from engaging in this type of sexual behaviour.
ENDS
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
But have we ever asked ourselves "Why does (our/the) church have so much trouble with the concept of homosexual men?"
Maybe you will find some information in this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8543982/
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Interesting. So the Anglicans (who inherited the Old testament) go further than the Jews (whose book it was originally)
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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