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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Hmmm, I guess it isn't always the USA that over reacts.
I wonder if the man had children?
I saw an interview with an eye witness who testified that the "police" pumped 5 shots into the man..... You would think that a simple "you're under arrest" would have been enough considering they already had him on the ground....
Man Killed in London Not Linked to Blasts
By PATRICK QUINN, Associated Press Writer
Police identified the man who was chased down in a subway and shot to death by plainclothes officers as a Brazilian and expressed regret Saturday for his death, saying they no longer believed he was tied to the recent terror bombings.
Friday's shooting before horrified commuters prompted criticism of police for overreacting and expressions of fear that Asians and Muslims would be targeted by a "trigger-happy culture" after two well-coordinated attacks in two weeks.
The man shot at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.
Hours after the shooting, Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the victim was "directly linked" to the investigations into attacks Thursday and July 7. In the latter, suicide bombings on trains and a bus killed 56 people, including four attackers.
Police initially said the victim attracted police attention because he left a house that was under surveillance after Thursday's bungled bombings, in which devices planted on three subway trains and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly. Stockwell is near Oval station, one of those targeted.
"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions," police said Friday.
But Saturday, a police official said on condition of anonymity that Menezes was "not believed to be connected in any way to any of the London bombings." The official requested anonymity because no official announcement had been made.
"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," a spokesman said on condition of anonymity, which is police policy.
However, police did not explain what went wrong. Citing a need to keep the investigation under wraps, the authorities refused to give any indication whether Menezes had done anything wrong at all.
In Brazil, the Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed" by the death of Menezes, whom it did not name but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."
The ministry said it expected British authorities to explain the circumstances of the shooting, and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim would try to arrange a meeting with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw during a visit to London.
Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years.
"He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves told the O Globo Online Web site from her home in Sao Paulo. Menezes was originally from the city of Gonzaga in the southeastern state of Minas Gerais.
Mayor Ken Livingstone said the killing was a "human tragedy" that was a consequence of the attacks.
"The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public," he said. "This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."
Livingstone drew a hard line before the mistake became clear, declaring that anyone believed to be a suicide bomber faced a "shoot-to-kill policy."
The shooting was an indication of the nervousness and anxiety around the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe.
Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public.
"It's incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it's very important that young Asian men don't feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there," Chakrabarti said.
The Islamic Human Rights Commission said "in the current climate of anti-Muslim hysteria, IHRC fears that innocent people may lose their lives due to the new shoot to kill policy."
Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, "It's absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness."
Police have made two arrests in the Stockwell neighborhood following Thursday's attacks. The second arrest was made late Friday "in connection with our inquiries" into those attacks, Metropolitan Police said.
Police have not released many details of the arrests, including the identities of those in custody.
Thousands of officers fanned out in a huge manhunt amid hopes the publication of closed-circuit TV images of four suspected attackers would lead to their capture. Blair declined to say if the men in custody were among the four pictured.
Security alerts kept Londoners on edge. Police briefly evacuated the Mile End subway station, where there were reports that one of the four suspects was seen and someone smelled something burning.
Service was suspended on parts of two subway lines, but police later said the incident "turned out to be nothing."
Fears of a new terrorist attack led Italian soccer powerhouse Inter Milan to cancel its English tour because of safety concerns, a move criticized by England's Norwich City soccer team.
"We find Inter Milan's decision hugely disappointing and totally wrong," said the team's chief executive, Neil Doncaster. "For Inter Milan to refuse to travel because of the threat of terrorism is simply giving in to the terrorists."
Hundreds of people also gathered Saturday to mourn Anthony Fatayi-Williams, a 26-year-old oil executive among those killed July 7.
"The cathedral is full. I can see Nigerians, people from different backgrounds, white and black, I can see people of all ages gathered here representing the different races of humankind," said his uncle, Tom Ikimi, a former Nigerian foreign affairs minister.
___
Associated Press reporters Catherine McAloon and Cassandra Vinograd contributed to this report.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Wrestling a man to the ground and executing him by pumping 5 shots into him is not policing. It is lynch law fed by adrenaline. It is murder, and nothing justifies it.
Even prior to the announcement that this was an innocent party I was deeply concerned about the police and their actions precisley because of the way they acted. It makes it horrifying when we know he was innocent.
We have a very good track record of shooting innocent people in London. Totally mistaken identity in a car that was not even the one being sought: Shot dead. Man carrying table leg: Shot dead. Man wearing unusual clothing for the time of year: Shot dead.
Our police is woefully unused to guns. Even the specialist units are unused to guns. And now we have ordinary people afraid of the British Bobby.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The bbc news site allows and encourages comment on news items. It does pride itself on lack of bias. As I post this it appears that the majority of the comments are in support of our "Gallant boys in blue".
What it does show is the sheep-like reaction of the moral majority as the allow freedoms to be eroded for the sake of an illusion of safety.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4711189.stm has the "story so far".
At the time I posted this the bottom post was by "Tom, Ottawa, Canada" and the top by "Andrew, Chiswick, London"
I have posted my own response for consideration. It does not back the police action.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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While it is not, per se, gay related, it does affect freedoms, and is relevant here. It is outside our normal span of topics, but highly valid for the board.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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While we're still waiting for the full facts surrounding this to come out, it is already clear that the shooting of this man was "a mistake".
I have some sympathy for the individual member(s) of the security/police forces involved - they should not have been placed in this position - but such "mistakes" should of course be prosecuted in the usual way for illegal killings.
Issuing guns (and tacit shoot-to-kill policies) on a routine basis to British police is alien to our tradition. Allowing units from other forces (military, special intelligence) to operate other than under strict supervision from civilian authorities is alien to our tradition.
However, our traditions are being torn up all over the place: detention without trial, extradition to the US on request without proper trial, military intervention in other countries affairs in a way at least arguably contrary to international law, the proposed introduction of Identity Cards, "curfew zones" for under-16's .... the whole authoritarian "Big Brother knows best" thing.
Taken together, these represent a far more serious threat to the "British way of life" than the curent wave of bombings do. I shall continue to actively oppose them by all possible peaceful means ... including hassling my MP, petitions and marches, and civil disobedience (refusal to carry ID cards when introduced).
On the whole, I love my country. But I am certainly not proud of much that the UK has done and is doing.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Normally I am a member of the apocryphal "hang 'em and flog 'em brigade", but in this instance I thoroughly support what Timmy has said.
The victim was challenged by three men in civilian clothes. In today's Britain they could easily have been muggers.
He was held down by two policemen while a third shot him in the head FIVE times. If the perpetrator had been in control of himself, once would have been sufficient.
While he will have the death on his conscience for the rest of his lifeand the prospect of a possible nervous breakdown, the police 'canteen culture' will close round him and tell him what a splendid job he did.
I happen to know several who are 'in the job' and I shudder at the tales of childish antics they get up to at quiet moments. I know it's an antidote to a stressful job.
If the man at the top has any integrity, he will resign. Sir Ian Blair's six month tenure as Britain's 'top policeman' has been a disaster without this.
Normally I try to support the police in all their work. Add their attitude towards motorists and the tendency to go for easy targets while ignoring those who are really harming our society, I am finding it increasingly difficult.
More in sorrow than anger
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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We can't easily go back to "Dixon of Dock Green" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixon_of_Dock_Green), though. And one should rememebr that George Dixon was brought back to life after being shot dead in The Blue Lamp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Lamp), all those years ago.
Even so, we have a woeful record with armed police. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711619.stm is highly relevant. We seem to be excellent at shooting the wrong man, even after we have deliberated.
If I were to be sympathetic for the man who pulled the trigger on Friday I would find it far easier after a single shot. Five seems more than over the top. One is enough of an error. While he was certainly dead after the first shot, five seems like a substantial excess.
We now are starting to hear that the victim did not come out of a "house" but out of a "block of flats " (apartment building) that was under surveillance. Now Stockwell is an area of London where I do not choose to go because it is somehwat impoverished. I fnd it very easy to believe that the victim mistook plain clothes armed police for some sort of armed gang.
The moral of the tale seems to be now, "Stand still and get mugged, run away and get shot." If you were being chased by 20 people yelling and waving guns I suspect you would have jumped the ticket barrier as well.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> We can't easily go back to "Dixon of Dock Green" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixon_of_Dock_Green), though. And one should rememebr that George Dixon was brought back to life after being shot dead in The Blue Lamp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Lamp), all those years ago.
>
I agree. Society has moved on. And I accept the need for a small number of highly-trained, self-disciplined, and above all *controlled* police marksmen - for example, for use in hostage situations.
The current situation of semi-skilled cops playing shoot-em-up under an unpublicised "shoot-to-kill" policy of questionable legality is entirely another matter. Five shots - as you say- smacks of adrenaline rather then judgement.
We can either press for a reversion to proper civilian policing or we can declare the police above the normal law. I vote for the former. However, the latter - in all kinds of instances from the tragedy at Stockwell to the number of people killed and injured on the roads each year by illegally-speeding police vehicles playing "Hollywood Cop Chase" - seems to be the route that society is headed.
I find it entirely unsuprising that the Met Police seem to have seen Israel as an appropriate model for dealing with terrorists: I expect the success of their approach to be no greater in the UK than it has been there. State violence begets a lack of trust, and without community trust there is no realistic prospect of the consensual policing that I see as necessary to prevent and deter terrorists.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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With an unbridled warrant of "if he looks like he might possibly have a device--- shoot to kill..." I find little difference between the law and the lawless they are trying to thwart.
How can a person of mid-eastern complection dare to walk out of their door at this point is beyond me.... My best advice to them would be to draw the shades for fear someone might shoot thru the window.
And what ever happened to due process of law?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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In Stockwell, it would be reasonable to assume muggers before any other type of person. Stockwell is not wholly law abiding.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc wrote:
> With an unbridled warrant of "if he looks like he might possibly have a device--- shoot to kill..." I find little difference between the law and the lawless they are trying to thwart.
>
I fully agree with that.
Violence begets violence. In London. In Afghanistan. In Iraq. It little matters "who started it" - that's a playground concept. What matters is what we can do to stop perpetuating it.
> And what ever happened to due process of law?
Oh, that old thing. I haven't seen it since before the UK Government decided to ignore the advice of our own Attorney-General* and assist with the invasion of a sovereign country in a manner at least arguably contrary to international law. Perhaps it's being held in Guantanamo Bay?
*see http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/document/2003/0307advice.htm
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually,
The war in Iraq has nothing to do with freedom, Sadam Hussein or terrorism.
It directly has to do with the Bush families oil interests in the middle east.
Our present policy in the government is based on personal issues not based on American values.... but based on one regimes wallet.
By "due process"....... I meant taking the man into custody and bring charges against him if charges are due.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> Actually,
>
> The war in Iraq has nothing to do with freedom, Sadam Hussein or terrorism.
>
> It directly has to do with the Bush families oil interests in the middle east.
>
> Our present policy in the government is based on personal issues not based on American values.... but based on one regimes wallet.
>
> By "due process"....... I meant taking the man into custody and bring charges against him if charges are due.
Again, I'd agree wholeheartedly.
But I regard the lack of "due process" involved in shooting Jean Charles de Menezes as just fractionally more understandable (because it was committed by individuals under considerable stress) than the lack of "due process" involved in the deliberate and premeditated locking up of foreign nationals without trial or charge - as happened at Belmarsh in the UK until ruled illegal, and as continues in Guantanamo Bay, for example.
And, although I may have been flippant in saying I haven't seen 'due process' about much recently, it was a flippancy covering a deep certainty that the current administrations in both the UK and the US regard human rights legislation and due process as matters to be paid lip service to, with no understanding of the fact the human rights is not only only about how you apply the law to those you agree with, but fundamentally about how you apply the law to those with whom you do not agree.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In theory, your assessment reguarding Guantanamo bay prisoners is correct.....
But at least they are prisoners..... not corpses.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy wrote:
> Stockwell is not wholly law abiding.
Neither is Tottenham - where I live. I've been mugged twice and burgled three times in the twenty years I've lived here.
Tottenham is also extremely ethnically and culturally mixed.
I am now getting a bit worried. In order for me to walk more than a couple of hundred yards I rely on a TENS unit ( a kind of electronic painkiller). This means that I have a bunch of 2-inch square electrodes stuck all over my back, with wires supplying them - all going to a unit on my belt. The outline of the wires etc is rather clearly visible through t-shirts etc.
I am, naturally, very prepared to stop and explain myself if challenged by the police. I have taken to carrying a copy of the hospital-supplied usage instructions for the TENS unit with me. But there is now a nagging worry at the back of my mind that, if someone notices a bunch of wires all over the place, and (rightly) reports suspicions, I may not actually have the opportunity to explain the situation before something unpleasant occurs.
Because of my phsical problems I can't drive and am reliant on public transport. Suggestions, anyone?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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There was a T Shirt seen today in Wandsworth "Don't Shoot, I am not Brazilian"
Crude by effective
A more practical idea is to make your concerns known to the local police station
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Oh my....... A TENS Unit.. (Trans-Cutaneous Electronic Neuro Stimulator)
I had one once upon a time for theraputic reasons following an incident in 1980.....
Some years later I discovered that if electrodes were placed in very specific and strategic places on the rear of the inner thighs.... and the switch hit at a crucial point in a romantic interlude....
Well..... Err..... the result was beyond explosive and prolonged as long as the unit remained activated.
Whooo................................
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As far as wires and running about in the shooting gallery.......
Take a cab........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Hmmm. "Very specific". Hmmm - I don't suppose you'd care to mail me a diagram?
Purely intellectual interest, of course ...
... although it might give me something to do if I decide it's too risky to go out!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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As a former regular poster but for two or three years an occasional lurker, I was enjoying my costitutional lurk when I read this thread. I'm not enjoying it anymore; in fact, I'm obliged to emerge from the shadows to say how appalled I am by the pious pronouncements above.
OK - my credentials: I have worked for the Government all my life, am a strong union activist and have not infrequently successfully opposed political detail which conflicted with my concept of liberty. I haven't risen high enough to influence policy itself, but, hey, we can all play our part! I am politically left-wing and a long-term member of several human rights organisations.
BUT!!!!!! This is the real and unlovely world, and there are unpleasant truths which we have no option but to face. Liberty can never be absolute; it must be tempered by limitations which prevent one man's liberty impinging on another's freedom - just ask the guy who lives next door to the gal who likes to play music at high volume in the early hours of the morning!
I am obviously deeply saddened by the death of an innocent man, whatever the circumstances. The trouble is, I don't yet know the circumstances. News is still filtering out, and will continue to do so for some time to come. But it does no good to pontificate piously until we know more.
For example, I accept that Stockwell is a rough area, but there are many rougher places in the United Kingdom. Even in Stockwell, gangs of armed men are hardly an everyday sight. We should be asking precisely how the plain-clothes police were dressed, and how they made themselves known.
I don't know why the suspect ran; presumably he was scared witless, as no doubt I would have been. I don't know anything about his background or his command of English; both factors may be relevant.
I do know that the intelligence which identified him as a suspect was in retrospect woefully inadequate, and that, frankly, doesn't surprise me. That's were our righteous anger should be directed. It's so often the shadowy figures in the background who are responsible for the tragedies laid at the door of the guy at the sharp end.
As I have said, the picture is still far from clear, but the blame does't necessarily lie with the guy who pulled the trigger. There may be evidence that he over-reacted, but as things stand it may equally well be that he simply carried out the instructions he had been given. The background is already available from links in this thread posted before some of the emotive excesses to which I am objecting. In short, if a suspected terrorist is thought to be carrying a bomb and resists arrest, then if the public is in danger the police will aim for the head because a shot to the body might well detonate the bomb - and, because accuracy when aiming for the head is much more difficult than when aiming for the torso, FIVE shots are to be fired. Five shots do not therefore represent an adrenalin-fuelled over-reaction; they simply comply with the orders issued.
The unhappy victim was running from a police challenge and was boarding a tube train. If he HAD been a suicide bomber, and HAD detonated a bomb, carnage would have been inevitable and the police would have been pilloried for failing to prevent him.
Now this might suggest that I am an apologist for the British Police. Far from it - VERY far from it! I think that many forces are appallingly badly organised, that there are far too many Officers whose arrogance is exceeded only by their incompetence, and that in many areas racism is endemic. I abhor all of this - and more - but our indignation should be directed against those who allow it to happen.
It seems to me to be naive in the extreme to criticise the fact that our Police are inexperienced in the use of arms. Despite the comments about 'mistakes', I have seen no real evidence to suggest that there are proportionately more mistakes in Britain than in any other comparable Western country. The fact remains that the vast majority of our police are unarmed, and that's the way I want it to be. Is anyone seriously suggesting that they should all carry guns to gain experience?
Britain is one of the most liberal regimes in the world; we are (almost!) universally acknowledged as an immensely tolerant democracy - the President of Pakistan criticised us only a few days ago for allowing extemist groups to meet freely in London. There are many areas in which I believe that we are nether sufficiently liberal nor sufficiently tolerant, but in the comparative sense our reputation in not entirely undeserved.
In short, my point is this. We have an imperfect world, in which mistakes will inevitably be made. Marc, we ALL make mistakes, but the law kills proportionately far fewer people in Britain than is the case in the United States. We MUST see the present, tragic situation in context. More facts will emerge, but from what we know so far the true genesis of the tragedy was a failure of intelligence - surprise, surprise. That's what we must demand to be made public. Emotive excess simply clouds the issue and impedes any real prospect of making a difference - and if we should have any ambition in life, surely it should be that we made a difference!
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest - I can only hope that it provokes some reflection!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Thank you for writing that. I 'enjoyed' reading what you had to say and agree with much of what you had to say. There is much wisdom in what you have written. I can't say much more than this because, not being resident in the UK, I don't think I have more than a moral right to criticize and defend.
(You should post here more often.)
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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When the police had the man down on the ground and under control is where the line was crossed.
Handcuffs were not enough.... One bullet was not enough....
Five....
I asked Tim this yesterday.....
"I wonder if the police man that shot was thinking 'little sheet head'"
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, that is of course your opinion. Such as it is.......
But I just have to side against cold blodded murder.
I side against it as far as the terrorist actions go as well as the police.
I'm sorry if that goes against what you believe.... It's just the way I am.
As for "emotive excesses"... Are you saying that we no longer have the right to express our opinion?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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cossie wrote:
>In short, if a suspected terrorist is thought to be carrying a bomb and resists arrest, then if the public is in danger the police will aim for the head because a shot to the body might well detonate the bomb - and, because accuracy when aiming for the head is much more difficult than when aiming for the torso, FIVE shots are to be fired. Five shots do not therefore represent an adrenalin-fuelled over-reaction; they simply comply with the orders issued.
You say the "five shots" part with authority. But nowhere have I seen that number stated. Not no the news, nor anywhere else. Now if the standing orders are to fire five shots, even at close range, that changes the point of responsibility from the individual with the gun (who themn simply becomes the weapon) to the person creating and issuing the orders.
A BBC article speaks of Israel and the lessons learned there about the need to destroy the brain of the terrorist in case the ability to detonate the bomb remains. While five shots would presumably do that effectively, unless and until we see confirmation that standing orders are multiple shots to the head, I will see this as an adrenaline fuelled execution. One shot woudk have been no less fatal, but intellectually more acceptable.
I like my freedoms. One I hold most dear to the ability to critices those in power. Another is not to fear my police force.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Just a response to the responses.
Marc, I'm afraid you illustrate my point admirably. Why are you assuming that the suspect was 'on the ground AND UNDER CONTROL'? Not even the early reports suggested that he was under control. I don't think that the true facts have yet been established with any certainty. It does seem to be universally agreed that he was on the ground, though there are several versions explaining how he got there - the two most prevalent being that he fell as he boarded the train as the doors were closing (credible, as he was running as he boarded) or that he was wrestled to the ground by the police - not necessarily by the officer who fired the shots (at least equally credible).
In any event, due to the tragic inadequacy - or rather inaccuracy - of the intelligence it was believed that he could well be a suicide bomber and that he was trying to board the train in order to detonate a bomb. He was shot in the head to prevent him from doing so. Even if he was on the floor of the train, there was - if the intelligence had been correct - a real possibility that he could detonate the bomb; if he had done so, there would have been widespread carnage and - as I said in my previous post - the police would certainly have been blamed for failing to prevent the explosion. They would also, in all probability, have been dead.
It was certainly a tragic mistake, from which lessons must be learned, but nothing in the reports thus far available justifies your supposition that it was a cold-blooded execution.
I repeat the caveat that I doubt whether the truth has yet emerged, but you have unilaterally assumed your own truth without regard to the available evidence. That, I suggest, is certainly emotive and it helps no-one.
Timmy, I confess that I am embarrassed by my inability to direct you to the exact source of my information. I devoured the 'quality' dailies while on a visit to Yorkshire on Saturday; there were at least two references to the 'five shots' policy, one of which mentioned the accuracy point to which I referred. The other implied that the policy was based upon Israeli experience. Unfortunately, the papers are still in Yorkshire, but I ain't! It was also mentioned in a TV discussion on Sunday, but I can't remember where - though News 24 seems a good bet as I looked for updates there on two or three occasions. The BBC website summary of Monday's headlines suggests that the Daily Mail may have referred to the policy - but a dyed-in-the-wool left-winger like me couldn't POSSIBLY admit to even TOUCHING such a rag! If I can come up with anything more precise I'll let you know, but I assure you that the statement was not a product of my (admittedly fertile!) imagination!
For as long as extremists seek to kill innocent civilians indiscriminately, I think that we must accept some suspension of normality. In a very real sense, this is war, and in war there will inevitably be casualties. But as well as fighting the extremists, we must certainly fight to preserve our democratic right to know the truth (which, incidentally, we rarely knew in World War II!) - but, please, put aside the rose-tinted spectacles until the war is over.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The day that it happened, I watched a live news feed whereas a live witness attested that the man was chased, pushed to the ground from behind, heald by two other police men - one at each arm then summarily executed.
If an eye witness is testament enough fir you then I doubt there is any amount of evedence that would.
As far as extreemists go.... It seems your police have joined their ranks.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Brazilian was shot eight times, inquest told
Inquiry by police complaints authority to look at all ranks involved, including those who gave orders
Mark Honigsbaum and Vikram Dodd
Tuesday July 26, 2005
The Guardian
Jean Charles de Menezes, the innocent Brazilian man killed by police after being mistaken for a suicide bomber, was shot eight times at Stockwell Tube station on Friday, not five times as had previously been reported.
The details of the number of rounds emptied into the 27-year-old Brazilian electrician after his pursuit through Stockwell station by an armed plainclothes squad emerged at the opening of an inquest into his death yesterday.....
Southwark coroner's court heard that Mr De Menezes, who arrived in Britain three years ago on a student visa, had been on the way to a job in Kilburn, north-west London, when he was challenged and pursued by armed police. He was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder.....
for more see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1536022,00.html
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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Here is some relevant information:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13394645,00.html
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Perhaps the thread should be.... "poor palestinean"....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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None of this makes me any more comfortable.
They followed him on a bus. They made no attempt to stop him until he headed for a tube station. And he came from a building with multiple homes in it, one of which was under surveillance.
What we have here is a posse of disorganised policemen aremd with lethal weapons. We then see panic "He's gettng away, what do we do?" This will be disguised in the enquiry as a professioanl decision making process.
We have a lot of Daily Mail style argument "He was a victim of terrorism". No. He was not. He was a victim of a half baked, badly planned police expedition.
And they even shot him in the shoulder.
This is not the country I grew up in. I trusted my police force, unlike so many other countries. Now I am no longer sure.
Yes, I understand that suicide bombers must be prevented.
Yes, I understand the imbecile posse was suddenly afraid. I understand it panicked. And these are reasons why those officers must never hold a firearm again. Their training failed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I really don't think that is fair.
Israel is the main nation to have suffered a huge number of suicide bombers, and has learnt how to handle them in the best way. Research will show that they only kill them, if they can kill them at all, when there is immediate and real danger.
Far more value to the security forces is a live terrorist that a bloody mess. That is what makes the disaster at Stockwell so unbelievably stupid.
Golda Meir once said "When peace comes we shall be able to forgive you for killing our sons; but we shall never be able to forgive you for making us kill your sons." It is, of course, rhetoric. But that makes it no less thought provoking. It was not, I think, about suicide bombers. It was much more to do with the perpetual difficulties between jew and arab
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, I never thought it fair that Palestine was taken away from the Palestinians.
It never made sense to me to solve one problem by creating two or three more.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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Do you mind very much if we attempt to leave Israel and Palestine out of this?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The more I look at the "Palestinian" item the more I wonder why it arrived. That is really a rhetorical wondering. I do not need an answer to it.
There is no way on earth we will ever solve Israel and Palestine. They have massive issues, each knowing that they are in the right.
Israel has been used as an example of a nation used to suicide bombers and urban terrorism. It also appears that the BBC's report of a shoot to kill policy in Israel was not necessarily true.
Extending this to cover an Israel and Palestine comnflict adds nothing to, and only takes awy from the issue of the British police executing an innocent man for the crime of running away in terror.
Unless we refer to lessons learned in other places, both good and bad, it seems to me that those other places are way off topic. I know I am going to be accused of censorship, I just know it. But I am declaring the Middle East per se "off topic" here
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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OK, I guess I haven't made much of an impact here. The thrust of my original post was quite simple; we don't yet know the facts and until we do emotive reaction is unhelpful in the extreme.
Marc saw an eyewitness report and accepts it completely. There were several eyewitness reports on UK television last Friday, and they all differed on points of detail. This is no surprise; eyewitness accounts of traumatic events are notoriously unreliable; it is only by comparative analysis of different reports that something like the truth is likely to emerge. There are several perfectly valid reasons for these different perceptions of the truth. The brain may infer what the eye doesn't actually see, especially in the case of a sudden dramatic occurrence; this isn't a matter of vivid imagination, it's just something we do all the time without realising it. In addition, our perception is coloured by our instinctive bias; two individuals with opposing views may see the same event in a significantly different way. Again, where the event is particularly traumatic - as this event certainly was - the shock factor may impair our analytical abilities. I'm not arguing that Marc's eyewitness was wrong, but rather thar the account wasn't necessarily the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Turning to Timmy's comments in the preceding post, it does rather appear that he is giving judgement before the evidence has been considered! As I made clear in my original post, I suspect that there has been a massive cock-up by the intelligence gatherers and I worry that they will again be able to hide in the shadows and to avoid the consequences of their inadequacy. That the intelligence was wrong seems beyond argument; the victim was thought to be a potential bomber and he obviously wasn't. Timmy is correct in saying that it appears from news reports that what was originally described as 'a house' under observation was acually a block of flats (apartments) in multiple occupation. But the 'hit squad' were presumably acting upon this false intelligence. So the suspect emerges from the building. The watching police believe him to be a potential bomber. With respect to Timmy, of course they followed him on the bus; their principal motivation would no doubt be the hope that he would lead them to others potentially involved in the bombings. It was only when he approached the tube station that he was challenged. And he jumped over the barrier and fled towards a train. Press reports suggest that he was wearing an unusually bulky jacket.
The inference seems unavoidable; there was a real probability that he might have a bomb and he was trying to board a tube train. Now I don't KNOW what happened next because the reports are conflicting, but at this point in time, four days after the event, if he HAD been a bomber, the police would have been heroes rather than villains.
My point is simple. We need to know the truth, and we must demand to know the truth, but I believe that both Marc and Timmy are jumping to far too many unfounded conclusions. In the nature of things it takes time for facts to emerge. It was revealed today that EIGHT shots hit the victim - despite the fact that most eyewitnesses talked of five. But it isn't clear from the reports whether all the shots came from the same gun. I'd suggest that if two guns were involved (and this might explain the under-counting by witnesses) this would lend some support to Timmy's allegations of disorganisation and panic. We don't know yet, and I don't think that it's helpful to present speculation as fact.
Again, there is the question of the victim's legal status as an immigrant. There were several reports over the weekend suggesting that he had overstayed a student visa and was thus liable to deportation if detected, though today a government Minister (Jack Straw) apparently said that so far as he knew the victim was lawfully present in the UK. This confusion needs to be resolved. I dismiss the emotive suggestion (quoted in The Guardian, see links in previous posts) that the victim's life could be regarded as less valuable if he were an illegal immigrant with the contempt it deserves and the nausea it induces. It is, however, an issue which needs to be resolved, because it may well explain the victim's flight when challenged.
So all of this brings me back to my basic point - WE DON'T YET KNOW THE FACTS!!!! If it turns out that the police officers in the squad acted in panic, I'll be in the front line demanding better training and controls. If it turns out (and it's my personal expected scenario) that the intelligence gatherers and interpreters were woefully incompetent, my voice will be loud in condemnation and in the demand for punishment.
But until then we should try to be cool, calm and collected. Emotive reaction is a tool manipulated by extremists; we shoud do our best to avoid it.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, I never said the witnesses account was gospel but I would think his view was a bit more informed than yours.
That and considering the inquiry determined that 8 shots were fired.
I do however agree that "WE DO NEED THE FACTS" and hopefully those facts will result in a conviction.....
But knowing how things work I tend to doubt anything but a cover-up will occur.
This is a small board...... viewed by relativly few in the grand scheme of things..... Our discussion here is hardly emotive reaction... In the world I come from it is called opinion.
And just as you are entitled to yours...... We are entitled to ours.....
Unless of course your police has made that a capital offense as well.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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What I can do is to revise my opinion based on facts as they emerge.
I have revised my opiniin so far from "Good, a terrorist died" to "My god, we executed him" to "Not only did we execute him, we killed an innocent man"
The current set of emerging facts shows disorganisation and panic. If additional facts emerge I wil be able to change my opinion again.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Yup, that's the headline on the BBC news ticker.
It seems to mean exactly what it sounds like.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4720979.stm
It will be interesting to see if this is a "retreat" so that the officer can have assistnce for him and his family to get over the trauma he may have experienced, or a holiday type holiday.
Jean Charles de Menezes will not be takin a holiday this year.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think one can classify several victims here.
My condemnation of the act itelf based on the information that I have so far, and of the way it appears the act was carried out has been based on the behaviours apparently exhibited by the police.
These behaviours will have been either within or outside their basic training and instructions. If outside then the officers themselves are culpable. if inside then those training the officers are culpable.
None of this removes the paradoxical fact that the officers concerned were also victims of the shooting, despite being the ones who chased and shot the man.
It is right to take the officers out of the service environment, and right to do so at public expense. It will equally be right should they prove to be personally culpable, to prosecute them. The holiday is not a reward. It is a necessary period of leave. I don't think they will be celebrating at Disneyland.
However I am most concerned that I should be able to trust my policeforce, not fear it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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.... but in many ways I wish I hadn't emerged from the shadows to join this debate; I hoped my original post would be a moderating influence, but it obviously hasn't worked out that way. However, I DO feel very strongly about the principle involved, so I feel obliged to comment on the reactions to my previous post.
What can I say to you, Marc? You may not have said that you believed that the witness statement was 'gospel' but the clear inference of all your remarks is that you believed it to be so. You say that you would think that his view was a bit more informed than mine; I don't see any logic in this remark, because I haven't expressed a 'view' about what happened. I have very explicitly said that I don't KNOW what happened, but that the reported statements made by the various witnesses contain significant differences; hence my plea to wait for the true facts to emerge before leaping to emotive conclusions.
Like most people, I can be cynical about cover-ups, but I have considerable respect for our legal system, having worked in conjunction with it for several years. Although the nominal head of the system is a political appointee, the Law Lords, Lords of Appeal and lower-ranking judges are not, and the system has a pretty good track record of supporting the rights of the individual against government - for example, the recent ruling against extended confinement of asylum seekers. It would be naive of me to pretend that a cover-up is impossible, but it IS unlikely. Of course, those who don't like the findings will always argue that there HAS been a cover-up, but that's pretty well inevitable, human nature being as it is.
I guess that your attitude is summed up in the observation that hopefully the facts will lead to a conviction. Why? The facts should lead us to an understanding of what happened, and that may well result in a conviction, but isn't inevitable. What ever happened to the concept of being innocent until proven guilty, let alone the concept of proof beyond reasonable doubt?
Do you really advocate lynch law?
I don't propose to dignify the last line of your post by commenting upon it, except to say that it sheds more light upon the writer than upon the topic.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Oh my........ The poor man...... 
