|
|
tim
|
 |
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
In another thread there is a comment about losing games, dares, or bets which then requires the "loser" to pay a sexual forfeit. That thread could get personal. To avoid that I am starting this thread where I hope we can have a serious, passionate, and non accusative discussion about such things.
- when does "truth or dare" turn abusive?
- when is an agreed forfeit unfair?
- is it valid to make a bet knowing you will lose?
There is much more to discuss. But let's do it without rancour.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Suppose, for the sake of argument, I was to offer to give someone a blow-job in case I lose some kind of bet. That someone might be younger than myself.
Suppose for the sake of argument, I intend to lose on purpose, probably because I really want to suck the other guy (yes, this is really transparent, I know).
Now, will I have taken advantage of that other person?
We will assume I have not pressured or forced the other party in accepting the bet, and the terms associated with it.
If he accepts it, one can assume it is not against his wish to get sucked. It will be an assumption, because we're not mind readers, but most of us are fair readers of faces and emotion, and if the idea of getting sucked does not seem contrary to that other person, that's probably because it ISN'T.
Theoretical discussions cannot get much further than this, since it is all speculation. Most of us are well aware when we make someone else pass the line between consent and non-consent. Tricking someone into agreeing to be on the receiving end of a blowjob given by another guy seems difficult to me, since most guys know QUITE well what such an act between two males entails.
You'd have to have been raised by animals in the wild not to know it.
And if it's ethical or not to lose on purpose, does it really matter? Losing anyway is always a possibility even if trying to win. If the both parties is okay with the consequences of losing then why bother about it?
So I'd have to say I can't see Rocky did anything wrong, using only the information he's given us.
-Lenny
"But he that hath the steerage of my course,
direct my sail."
-William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, Act One, Scene IV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
richard lyon
|
 |
Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
|
|
|
This is really about consent. What is it? Who is able to give it? When does it occur?
For a game to be a game all parties should have a similar understanding about what is going on. It is something that one can stop by saying "I don't want to play anymore".
The basic issue is age. When are people to be allowed to decide what they wish to participate in?
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
- If I don't co-operate with this game I will look a dork. So I have to co-operate, otherwise I will never hear the end of this. I don't like the game, but I have to do it.
- I like the idea of the forfeit, but I don't dare volunteer for it. Maybe, just maybe I'll get to try this without looking as though I want it.
I'm not going to make any comments about any person in this thread. To me that is not relevant or important. But I do believe that we need to show that we think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
I've been thinking about this a lot and have so many comments, so please forgive my lack of organization in my response. I may not be "depersonalizing" this as much as Tim would like, but here's my take.
In Rocky's case, we aren't told what the winner "wins", only what the loser does. If we take Marc's worst-case approach that the younger partner was being tricked/abused and assume he would've lost the same way, it was probably "less abusive" that he won the bet rather than lost.
However, I don't think given the history of the relationship, that this was any sort of coercion/abuse.
Richard mentions the old age of consent issue; Tim says 16 is likely of consenting age. I couldn't tell from the account when the bet took place, but don't find it very relevant, morally speaking, considering the boys' previous history together.
The minor/adult thing is very arbitrary and most of us will agree that the consent issue is really more about understanding what we want and the ramifications rather than an arbitrary age.
Generally speaking, I do agree with Marc that adults and children can seldom have a healthy sexual encounter (let alone long-term relationship) although, like everyhing about humans, there are probably exceptions. To me this sounds like two boys or young men playing around and discovering things rather than an adult with a child. Another important issue, to me, is if one held some sort of power over the other, which I don't think is true in this case.
Like Tim said, I don't think it's our place to judge, especially considering the lack of facts and "grayness" of this situation. It took a lot of guts for Rocky to talk about this, and I think we owe him some respect for that.
It's hard for me to be objective - part of me wishes something like that had happened to me when I was younger, so I could discover my own sexual orientation earlier than I had. More than once I considered approaching someone older at that age.
Rocky - I'm guessing that most of us don't think you did anything wrong - that the bet was mostly a natural progression from the prior events in which presumably you both were willing participants, I certainly don't. But, this is a reminder that some people will be quick to judge and you may need to be extra cautious if you are breaking any laws.
If it WAS wrong, well, we all make mistakes and can ask forgiveness, learn from our mistakes, and make amends as best we can.
Marc - I think your point is generally sound and I applaud you for helping to protect the innocent. I was deeply saddened to hear that one in six boys is molested. A 10 year old told me this during "sex ed" week in school, but I don't know the teacher's source.
My own philosophy is simply don't hurt anyone or let yourself be hurt. You need to keep the lines of communication open to do that, but I'll bet there was lots of nonverbal communication going on at the time. Rocky, if you are intimate sexually, you should be able to talk about it, now that the ice has been broken, before the next encounter.
Yes, I'm sure it's possible for a young person to unintentionally hurt a younger person due to lack of experience and perspective or an excess of hormones, but I don't get that impression from this particular relationship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
trevor
|
|
Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
|
|
|
The first bullet would be more likely if there were other participants - peer pressure. But, there is some history that I don't think can be overlooked in this case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rockyraccoon
|
 |
Getting started |
Location: Mexico
Registered: March 2002
Messages: 11
|
|
|
I know I haven't given you too much info, and I apologize, but it just hurts to look back.
One thing I didn't mention is how the bets were placed/taken... basically, I would suggest something, and he would accept it. Simple as that. I have never forced other people to do something they don't want, I wouldn't risk his friendship for something as silly as a 5 minutes of physical pleasure (sorry if I misspelled anything  ).
I would say "truth or dare" gets abusive whenever one of the parties is not comfortable with it, and it's forced to continue.
I don't think there's such thing as an agreed forfeit being unfair, because if it was agreed by all the parties, they know from the beginning what the result may come.
About the bets, I think we should ask "Is it valid to make a bet knowing you will win?"
Would you call a game of strip poker unfair? All participants know from the very beginning what may happen, and they still play. (this is only an example).
I can't speak for every single time something like this has happened, but, I can say I never pushed him into anything he didn't want to. Whenever I saw he was uncomfortable with a topic (for example, his parents were divorced, and he never wanted to talk about that), I wouldn't push.
I think I could say I only pushed in the direction he wanted or agreed to be pushed.
If he, at any time would have told me to stop during our little sexual encounters, I would have done so immediately.
I, over all things love and respect him, and wouldn't dare to force him into something he doesn't want to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
tim
|
|
Really getting into it |
Location: UK, West of London in Ber...
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 842
|
|
|
We ALL did things we aren't always proud of when younger. Want to hear some of mine? oh wait! You have! Interminably!
Now please can we depersonalise this item? A generic debate is good value here. A perosnal one is just beginning to piss me off.
I really do see the value of the generic discussion, but I find the aiming of it at a particular case is starting to be offensive.
Now when I was a kid I tricked a neighbour into showing me his body. Like ALL of it. He was 7 and I was nine. How wrong wasI?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Firstly, about wagering.... For the most part I feel it is safe to assume that about every gay boy has at one point played strip poker with other boys. This in and of it's self is basically healthy just as boys comparing size or any other juvinile pissing contests you (or I) can think up.
The issue I feel is over the line is the age difference.
When one of the above mentioned "pissing contests" are innitiated or even just participated in by an adult (read non-age-contemporary) then the innocence ov the youthful play is tainted.
To Rocky, I don't here or previously accuse you per se of any wrongdoing. If I have given that impression, then I appologize.
The issues I present here are for the sake of debate. As in any group of verbal conversants someone needs to play the devil's advocate......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If all particapants agree to the terms prior to the start of the game, then it is fair.
I personally have never played 'truth or dare' even as a child. But we did play doctor, spin the bottle, you show me.., etc. The pressure to participate in these games was tremendous, because otherwise you would be labeled by your peers as chicken or queer or scared. And some things we did were very dangerous. Personally, I think children's games have to push the envelope in order for them to grow and mature. We cannot shelter them from life. Children have to learn consequences, that is something that cannot be taught. I follow norms in society in trying to protect my children, but I also have to let them experiment, and let them learn from their failures.
An example, I bought all three of my kids in-line skates. Along with the skates were bought helmets, wrist and and knee pads. I would not let them out the door without wearing the safety gear. But after they went out the door, I did not follow them where ever they went to ensure they kept the safety gear on, or stopped and looked prior to entering the street to skate. They had been taugh earlier in their lives about safety and what can happen if they are not careful. And yes, I was there to clean the scrapes and apply the bandages. And I was there to take them to the hospital to have the broken arm set and cast. I didn't yell at them for getting hurt, just reminded them of the word consequences.
So what is to be done? I say let's wrap all children in armour, of course with chastity belts underneath. And execute all men becasue they may be a sexual predator, out to corrupt and use children only for their own desires. And the women as well, because they too can abuse. Oh, hell, just shoot everyone.
Hugs, Charlie
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
It amazes me that so many "adults" can justify taking the advantage of innocent children so easily.
The issue is the difference in ages when playing these games that make them abhorant. No matter what the age of consent is in your respective country of origine it is morally wrong to entice children into sexual acts.
If children were let to play childish games in their own way the world might be a nicer place overall.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
richard lyon
|
|
Toe is in the water |
Location: San Francisco
Registered: February 2002
Messages: 55
|
|
|
In previous post here you have raised a hue and cry about the importance of everyone obeying "The Law". Now you seem to be saying that laws that don't agree with your views are irrelevant and unimportant. Perhaps you could clear up my confusion.
Richard
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
I never said nor advised to tread against the law....
What I meant here was that when playing these childrens games they are for the most part healthy as long as the participants are age appropriate.
For instance, kids can play strip poker (as they do).... But when one of the players is older.... say 16 or 17... and the other boys are 12 and 13.... I believe that even though all players are still minors, the game has been tainted by the age (read experience level) difference of the older boy.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
Think I lost the thread there somewhere.. 
