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I have read the correspondence on this subject with interest. It is not uncommon, particularly in schools, but also in youth and sports clubs, for adolescents to have a 'pash' (for want of a better word) on older people. Yes, they have to be wise enough to recognise this and physically walk away or make sure there is always a third person present or an open door. However, these young people who are discovering their sexuality (hetero- or homo-) can come on quite strong, even to the point of pressing erections against the victim of their fancy.
The older person has to take care not to turn this misguided love into hatred by spurning the younger. He may in a weak moment even be flattered by it, and either consciously or unconsciously encourage it.
The law is a blunt instrument which will always lay the blame at the door of the older person. It would not recognise that he is in fact the victim.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The adult is NEVER the victom!!!
The adult has the responsibility to maintain decorum in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES when in a position of leadership reguarding youth.
The adult has the experience the youth has the innocense.......
Lets just keep it that way....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I think Nigel may be talking of circumstances where nothing whatsoever actually happens, but the child accuses the adult of acts that have not taken place because the child is in a position of great power.
There have been many false accusations made by a child against a teacher. And yes there have been may times real allegations should have been made.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A child can lie anytime he/she decides to.
About whatever he/she decides to lie about.
No one can possibly control that scenierio.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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isn't part of the point that the child with the crush on the adult approaches the adult, who rebuff's the advance. the childs infatuation turnsthe opposite way, and accuses the adult of performing exactly what was asked by the child, as an act of revenge.
thinking in particular of student teacher scenarios here, there have been a couple of cases recently where the teacher accused had done onthing wrong, and incidents were either manufactured by the student, or forced by the student (the teacher raped by a 12yr old student, and the teacher accused of kissing one of her pupils both spring to mind)
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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Speaking as someone who has no idea about this "sex" thing (honestly) I never cease to be amazed by the way that people's opinions change entirely and they go into a state of semi-hysteria the moment you mention the word.
For example:
Scenario 1: A group of young teenage troublemakers beat up a man in the street in an unprovoked attack. The tabloids are up in arms (What is Britain coming to? The yobs are out of control - no-one is safe!)
Scenario 2: A known troublemaker from the same group makes an allegation against his hitherto entirely upstanding school teacher -- and wham! the tabloids are up in arms again, but on the other side! (What is Britain coming to? Lock up these vile sickos who prey on our defenceless youngsters!)
I would like to think that "real people" would use a little common sense and realise that the media deliberately hype it up as it gets them better ratings. But most people like to be told what to think, and are too stupid to see how they are being manipulated.
Is there a case to be made for censoring the press if they are deliberately and provocatively influencing public opinion?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It comes back to the old threat "If you don't do [action] I'll tell everyone you did it anyway."
Interestingly one could argue that this itself is a form of rape when used to coerce someone into sex or other acts.
Now, if we take as a "given" that Marc is correct and that the adult always bears the responsibility for the outcome, what is the adult to do when confronted with a child in a place without witnesses (it is impossible to have adult witnesses at all times) by a child who issues this threat?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thank you, Black Prince, for making the point I obviously failed to make.
The trouble is once 'sex' and 'under age person' come together there are people who automatically close their ears, eyes and mind and (pre-)judge an innocent person.
It's to be noted that they usually expect an open mind on every other subject under the sun. They approach the type that would smash a paediatrician's windows because they can't distinguish between a paediatrician and a paedophile in their blind rage.
I did make the the point that the wise person walks away physically, or literally, as soon as the situation threatens to become dangerous. Walking away 'metaphorically' means you just dump the relationship with the young perpetrator with the attendant peril of being falsely accused, or of damaging that person's attitude and all that brings with it.
I knew I would be opening a can of worms, but so be it.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well then I guess the child is going to get screwed then......
Kudos to him.......
There I said it....... Happy now?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Timmy said:
"...what is the adult to do when confronted with a child in a place without witnesses (it is impossible to have adult witnesses at all times) by a child who issues this threat?"
You can do the right thing and turn the child down. If he accuses you anyway, there will be no physical proof to back up the claim.
OR
You can do what the child "wants" and then be guilty of a crime, for which there will be physical evidence. When the child tells (as he/she should)you have no defence since "he asked for it" doesn't work in court.
As for not having witnesses; as an adult working with kids you have to take care to never be in a possition where you are alone with a child. The youth group that I work with has rules that, when followed, protect both the youth and the adult. Following those rules is difficult and sometimes you want to make exceptions, but you can't, not ever.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It is genuinely impossible always to have a witness. Take a teacher and an assistant taking a class. One child is ill, and one adult has to take them to the nurse. Both adults cannot go, and another child is not a reliable witness. At somem age groups another child is the worng peorsn to escort the sick child to the nurse. Equally some ailments mean an adult is required. Asthma springs to mind.
My wife teaches. She has asked what to do in such a circumstance and she has been told "do your best" by the headmaster. Fortunately she does not posses a penis so her best is easier than a male teacher's in that position.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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You know it is, I think, the adult that is going to get screwed here, I hope only metaphorically.
The correct thing is to walk away fast and report the matter to (eg) a headmaster if you are a teacher. To make a written and if necessary sworn statement.
And then to be afraid of the attendant publicity, of the child, of the local populace while knowing you are innocent. Being innocent does nto prevent an enraged and morally upstanding citizen from throwing a brick through your window.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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You call the nurse to the class..... and don't take no for an answer.
Simple problem to solve.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I think Nigel has a very valid point, and the can of worms certainly merits close examination.
I don't share Marc's perception of this (or indeed any) issue as being capable of reduction to black and white; the world is full of shades of grey. We live in an age which has given us all the idiocies of political correctness, and the legal perception of adult-child relationships has, to a significant degree, been driven by the same misguided zeal.
My views on the basic question of age of consent were posted under the original thread, and provoked a stunning silence - but I'm not going to repeat them now, other than to say that I believe that an age of consent is necessary, that it should be flexible and sensitive to the age difference of the parties, and that the precocious few who desire and could cope with relationships with adults at an early age must suffer restriction of their liberty for the benefit of the majority.
So far as I can see, however, there is no need for the law to be the blunt instrument which it undeniably is; that is simply the result of paranoid 'public opinion' fanned by the tabloid press. Look back about half a century. Prosecutions for child molestation were apparently relatively rare, and many complaints from abused children were not adequately pursued, if indeed they were pursued at all. Obviously, that had to change. It did, and as cases became subject to proper scrutiny, more abused children - quite rightly - came forward. No reasonable person could deny that this was an excellent result.
But then the shallow thinkers got in on the act: child abuse, they said, is on the increase, since more and more cases are coming to light. This they argued, is appalling - we must all be alert to the slightest evidence of such a heinous crime. Of course, the principle of action and reaction applies, and as a result those with responsibility for children are obliged to protect themselves from unwarranted accusations. We thus have the idiocy of an adult being prevented from comforting a distressed child in case a display of affection might be misconstrued - and that happens, believe me.
Returning to my comment about shades of grey, common sense would suggest that those who have come forward with allegations of abuse are, in the main, those who were damaged by that abuse. But damage is not an inevitable consequence of an adult-child sexual relationship - I can vouch for that because I was 'abused'; in retrospect it did me very little harm, but id did alert me to the dangers I might face. I am sure I am not unique; but of course neither I nor others like me are going to make official complaints.
Hence, as so often happens, the worst cases are those which receive public scrutiny, and common sense goes through the window. Certainly, when the press gets in on the act, the accused is subject to just about as much vilification for possession of 'indecent' photographs as he would be if arrested for assaulting a minor over a period of years. To my mind, that is not merely wrong, it is positively dangerous. Ever heard the comment that 'you might as well be hanged for stealing a sheep as for stealing a lamb'? Think about it. If the law remains a blunt instrument, it has a terrible relevance.
Finally, my apologies for the length of this post - I know I'm once again open to the accusation of posting a dissertation, but this time it's actually a tiny extract from a 'dissertation' I did actually write!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If the law becomes so muddled with every variable and circumstance then it is no longer a law.....
The law is written to set standards of behavior in a complex society, not to set complex behavior as social standards.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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And how do you get the nurse?
Ah yes. You send a child to get the nurse who is busy dealing with something else important. The child comes back with "the nurse says she can't come, and you then spend time shuttling the mesage back and forth. Meanhwile the ailing child dies, struggling for air, withy a bad asthma attack. Inhalers are keptinthe nurse's office to prevent "abuse", and are only given out to an adult or the child herself.
The Coronoer's Court at the inquest accuses you of not exercising your duty of care correctly and you now have to fight with your union for your job. Even if you keep your job you are known in that locale as "the teacher who let Amy die" and your job is untenable. And the attendant publicity means you cannot move school because no-one will have you.
While your way has adult logic it does not work in a school environment.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Would that you were right about why the law is written. I think you are correct that this is the reason law ought to be written.
All too oftehn law is drafted as a knee jerk reaction to a set of circumstances that have been adequately legislated for, but a politician feels a new law is required "to keep the public happy" nowadays. The rubbish in the UK about identity cards, fingerprinting and DNA sampling the entire populace is one such piece of rubbish. The various sudden anti terrorist laws in the US are another example.
If we were to go back to a decent pause before a law was enacted or repealed with people who cared about us instead of themselves in power then your statement would stand better scrutiny. It is a decent statement, but it is not what happens.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Perhaps silence showed agreement?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Errr......
Ever hear of the telephone???
If the child is that close to death then it would be folly to have him/her walk anywhere.
If the child was in that much peril then I for one would call emergency servoces not a school nurse.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh my,,,,,, how did this index here?
confused...................
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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In the schools where I live the teacher would turn around and press the call button located behind their desk and ask the office to send the nurse or call for help. the teacher could also use their cell phone to call 911 if the problem is too big for the nurse.
I think that the call buttons are required by the state.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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Have the rules changed in the last couple of years?
Throughout my entire school career -- from 4 until 18 -- the vast majority of classes were taken by a single adult on their own. The only time there were two or more adults in a class was when two different classes joined forces for a combined activity (and that happened only very occasionally).
If you were ill, either the teacher would dispatch another child with you or you'd find the matron on your own. Or in the worst case scenario, the teacher would go with you, leaving the class for a couple of minutes until they could find someone else to take over.
That's the way the private sector has done it for generations, so I'm not quite sure how separating off a teaching assistant to escort a child (on a very rare occasion) is going to cause any more problems than those encountered on a daily basis in a private school.
Or am I missing something?
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Gotta disagree here!
Marc, I'm afraid that you're taking emotive rubbish. The law is perfectly capable of being finely tuned to the specific circumstances of a particular case. As an example, it copes perfectly well with separation and custody issues. In many criminal cases, it can and does distinguish between the intention and the result of a given action. Of course mistakes are made, but overall they represent a tiny fraction of the total number of judgements given. The law we were discussing was that concerned with protection of minors from exploitation by adults - an area embracing innumerable shades of grey. To set a crude and simplistic standard in such circumstances would require crude and simplistic law; why settle for that when we can do much better?
Timmy, I have to suggest that you, too, are being emotive. I agree that politicians are over-eager for the simple and popular fix - but other politicians are just as eager to stick a spanner in the works just for the hell of it. For example, I found it difficult to see why 90-day detention of terrorist suspects was at all objectionable; the proposal would have required the police to convince a High Court judge at seven day intervals that continued detention was justified - an aspect that received little or no publicity in the tabloid press. Equally, you cite with scorn the suggested identity card proposals, but regardless of their merit those proposals are being aired long before any legislation is introduced. Surely that's not a bad thing? I again accept that our legal system isn't perfect, but the English judiciary is probably more independent of political will than the judiciary of any other Western democracy.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Cossie,,,,, you are an ass......
I know fully well the law can be fine tuned to a situation....
What I refered to was the varied circumstances within the sphere of concent laws.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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OK, No call buttons. there just are none. And no cellphone
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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then your school system needs to modernize I think.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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We're missing the point. Modernisation is the future. We have to deal with the present. the present is the act that no such thinsg exist, and that there is no budget for them to exist. Yhe school spends money on thinsg that educate children, not on call buttons.
Thiss school is a school of some 800 pupils in the state run sector.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well here we manage to do both......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well see, there you are wrong.....
It did solve the problem..... Here....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Whether someone is ann ass or is not an ass is not the point. I think the most one might say is that one 'feels the behaviour is unaccetpable' if one feels it that strongly. That is relatively impersonal, but calling someone an ass is name calling and I do not like it here.
I simply do not want name calling here
[Updated on: Tue, 22 November 2005 12:38]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I think one needs to be careful with language here. Your opening sparked Marc's post calling you an ass. While you do talk about the behaviour it was not really the way to phrase it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I would have sent it in an email but he doesnt seem to have the gonads to place it here.
Thus this being my only venue ......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Doesn't make it right. I know he was uncareful with words too and I have also said so to him, but it isn't seemly for either of you.
Cossie, please email Marc and take this one offline with him
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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You manage to educate children in America?
That comes as quite a surprise.
I spent one day in the American school system, only one of the 3 teachers I had that day even noticed I was there.
I shouldn't be targetting America like this, it's rude, I know, but from my experience and understanding of American schools it seems entirely fitting that they should have call buttons, actually.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Perhaps it was not the teacher's fault she/he didnt notice you......
Perhaps it was a lack of presence on your part........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... as long as the reference is to an ENGLISH ass, rather than an American ass. You can say what you like about the length of my ears, but my nether regions are not up for discussion!
I'm not sure why my e-mail address is concealed - it wasn't in the past - but it might well be down to my incompetence, which I admit is pretty comprehensive. It certainly has nothing to do with my gonads which, again, are not up for discussion. In any event, my e-mail address is, and has always been, cossie44@hotmail.com.
I've no wish to go to war with anyone, and if Marc would be good enough to explain the point he has in mind - brief and terse comments are apt to be misunderstood - I would happily reply accordingly.
And hey - telling someone that they're talking emotive rubbish is positively friendly in the halls of academia - but then, within those walls the participants usually have skins as thick as elephants (and, not infrequently, brains of a similar consistency!)
C'mon, Marc - slap me round the face with a kipper, and let's get on with it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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And that is great for you. But it does not solve the problem 
