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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > This is most encouraging
This is most encouraging  [message #26931] Wed, 30 November 2005 09:15 Go to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



I know that a lot of young people visit this MB, so please use this link to see that being gay in the modern world is no barrier to a worthwhile career OUT of the closet. The world has changed.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3177102,00.html



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26932 is a reply to message #26931] Wed, 30 November 2005 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13800



This I like. It illustrates precisley the point the Famos Gays items are meant to illustrate. That gay people are able to be opnely gay (where it is safe to do so) and that this does not affect their employment or other status.

Other parts of the world need to change as well.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
To be pedantic ...  [message #26933 is a reply to message #26932] Wed, 30 November 2005 20:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



... didn't we start out by requiring that these famous gays be dead?

Of those...

i. some were known to be homosexual and persecuted for it
ii. some were in the closet for all of their lives
iii. many were deeply unhappy about it, and some committed suicide
iv. a very few were both comfortable and entirely open about it

Only those who fitted into the fourth category can really be said to prove your point, and until a few years ago that was practically nobody.

Sorry, just felt like being difficult. I appreciate that that was then and this is now, but even so there are doubtlessly famous figures who cannot announce their sexuality publicly for fear of alienating their fans. Movie actors, for example.
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26934 is a reply to message #26932] Wed, 30 November 2005 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



What about the many people who from one time or another have been terminated due to their orientation?

One gay diplomat does not show much of a cross section of any societal segment.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Well, I'm encouraged ....  [message #26935 is a reply to message #26934] Thu, 01 December 2005 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



... because it's one more openly gay diplomat than we had before! The past is the past, and we must learn from it, but surely that should not prevent us from celebrating progress? The gay community has achieved a great deal over the last 50 years; there may be a long road yet to travel, but the journey will certainly seem faster if we keep our eyes to the front and celebrate the milestones along the way!



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: To be pedantic ...  [message #26936 is a reply to message #26933] Thu, 01 December 2005 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800



Either dead or properly and irrefutably "out"



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26937 is a reply to message #26934] Thu, 01 December 2005 07:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800



Yes, even with the people who have been killed because of their orientation this is encouraging.

People in nations like Iran are still killed because of their orientation. Nonetheless "one gay diplomat" in a nation not hugely far from the Arab fundamentalist world is openly gay, married and contentedly going about his daily business with it being accepted.

He is a small island, perhaps. Perhaps he is a shining beacon. Perhaps he is neither of these. Perhaps he does not matter at all. Or, just posisbly, he is an inspiration to those who grow into adulthood today and tomorrow.

Not that this diplomat is a civil rights activist, but doesn't he show that civil rights exist and can be properly respected?

The same goes for the myriad pop stars who are out and content, ranging from the flamboyant Elton John to the demure inevitable boy band members whos names we can't even remember.

And that is surely the point. Being gay is now becoming mundane. It is not interesting except to those of the wrong gender who are attracted to us and to those of the right gender who are attractred to us.

Highlighting the mundane is a strange thing to do except that it shows how mundane secuality atually is. I am encouraged that I once felt out on a limb and I can now see how truly ordinary i am.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26939 is a reply to message #26937] Thu, 01 December 2005 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Yes, even with the people who have been killed because of their orientation this is encouraging.

YES!!!

and people are beaten for nothing more than walking a little too close ona city street!

Thanks for bringing the image of that to me.....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26940 is a reply to message #26939] Thu, 01 December 2005 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800



Nothing will ever take that image from you, we both know that. Nothing will ever make that appalling memory anything less than the memory of a fine young man killed for no reason.

Nothing even says that it could not happen there again today.

But it is less likely to happen today than those years ago. Again that is the point.

That you have suffered immensely is a difficult thing to bear. That Ricky suffered for simply being out for a pleasant evening is almost harder. But that the world is changing is good. It doesn't take away your perosnal grief and pain. It may be no consolation to you at all to know that other people are not going through what you and he went through.

However I did not mean the individual horror of a random "drive by" killing. I was referring to the state sanctioned organised horror of hanging gay teenagers simply for having sex. That is the position in Iran. It is not the position in the USA.

With Israel deep in the turmoil of the Middle East, despite apparently implaccable conficts of ideology and geography, perhaps the Danish Ambassador will have a positive effect.

[Updated on: Thu, 01 December 2005 12:14]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26941 is a reply to message #26934] Thu, 01 December 2005 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JFR is currently offline  JFR

On fire!
Location: Israel
Registered: October 2004
Messages: 1367



Marc wrote:
> What about the many people who from one time or another have been terminated due to their orientation? One gay diplomat does not show much of a cross section of any societal segment.<

Oh, Marc. What a spoilsport you are! Is there nothing in this big wide world in which you can find some pleasure? Does everything always have to be so negative? What an unhappy life you must lead!

It truly hurts me to think that something really terrible must have happened to you in the past - something so bad that it will not permit you to see even one ray of sunshine where others see a brilliant sunny day.

The greatest tragedy that can beset us is when we allow a past tragedy to go on ruining our lives, preventing us from leading a happy life. When it is a physical tragedy it may not be possible to overcome the despair (though very many do). But when the hurt is in our hearts and minds it is possible to curse the past and vow never to let it mar the present or the future.

You are such an intelligent person. You have so much to give us on this MB and the rest of the world. What a tragedy for us that your tragedy (whatever it was) will not permit you ever to see that the glass of life is half full, not half empty.

What I have written I have written in care for you, with not a shred of negative feeling towards you whatsoever. May God bless you, Marc, and help you make yourself whole again.



The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
Re: This is most encouraging  [message #26942 is a reply to message #26941] Thu, 01 December 2005 13:10 Go to previous message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



JFR wrote:
> Marc wrote:
> > What about the many people who from one time or another have been terminated due to their orientation? One gay diplomat does not show much of a cross section of any societal segment.
> Oh, Marc. What a spoilsport you are! Is there nothing in this big wide world in which you can find some pleasure? Does everything always have to be so negative? What an unhappy life you must lead!

Yes.... there is something ..... well actually someone..... that allows the fog to clear.... Though I don't make it very easy for him sometimes..... I don't try to be negative..... but the world is not all the glossy picture many paint it to be.... We have had friends here that have been devistated by small minded employers. Some people here had flourishing carrers only to be forced to resign or be dismissed.

Do I have a happy life..... Well, to that all I can say is that I try..... my very best..... Sometimes when certain.... triggers are set... it all comes thumpingly harsh on me and I loose control. Sometimes a thing is said out of context and I fall apart.... I try not to burden Kevin with these failures of mine.... but the fallout of my inadequacies sometimes stresses our relationship quite alot....

But there is a bright side.... I no longer keep weapons of mass destruction in the house.... I no longer need buckets of pharmaceuticles to get through the day....
>
> It truly hurts me to think that something really terrible must have happened to you in the past - something so bad that it will not permit you to see even one ray of sunshine where others see a brilliant sunny day.

The past is always with us.... No matter how any of us try to fluff it up the memories are still there.... Do I walk through life looking for the dark side of things?.... Well, thats hard for me to judge... so I am forced to take your word (among many others here) that I do... I prefer to think of it though as being realistic.
>
> The greatest tragedy that can beset us is when we allow a past tragedy to go on ruining our lives, preventing us from leading a happy life. When it is a physical tragedy it may not be possible to overcome the despair (though very many do). But when the hurt is in our hearts and minds it is possible to curse the past and vow never to let it mar the present or the future.

To this, all I can say is that you would have had to be there to know just what happened..... Some things are not easy to place aside once brought into the light of day.
>
> You are such an intelligent person. You have so much to give us on this MB and the rest of the world. What a tragedy for us that your tragedy (whatever it was) will not permit you ever to see that the glass of life is half full, not half empty.
>
> What I have written I have written in care for you, with not a shred of negative feeling towards you whatsoever. May God bless you, Marc, and help you make yourself whole again.

I know what heart you speak with.

Just know that every day is an effort. Hugely so..... And this place is a large part of of what holds me together.... even though sometimes it feels like it is trying to bring me to s flying flaming crashing stop.

Outside of Kevin, Tim and one person here in Sandusky..... unless it is for business reasons (which I keep to a minimum) I speak with no one. The few times I have forrayed into the public usually ends up in a bad experience. I have tried from time to time to broaden my scope of social contacts but every time I end up not hearing from them again after the innitial first 2-3 meetings.

Well I don't want to bore you anymore.....

sigh



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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