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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If a person says he/she is gay.... is he/she gay?
If so..... if no.....
What then is the nexus that ratifies such a proclamation?
It is after all...... one thing to talk the talk...... quite another to walk the walk.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I've said I'm gay a few times, but recently I've been wondering whether I actually am or whether I simply think I am. If I spend more time thinking about men than I do about women then that may simply be because I identify with them more, and am happier in their company. For sometimes I come across a beautiful woman who completely throws my expectations.
The world is analogue, not digital. Everything is divided into shades, not simply one thing or another. I guess if someone says they are gay then it shouldn't offend them for one to refer to them as gay, but that doesn't mean one can necessarily expect them to behave in a certain way because of it.
After all, not all straight men find all women attractive; not all gay men find all men attractive; and as there are a close to infinite number of possible combinations of physical attributes and only a finite number of people, no-one can ever say that he will never find an exception to his expectations -- nor that this hypothetical exception could not be far more attractive to him than the sex he "expects" to find attractive.
Everything comes down to probabilities. Even the structure of matter, once you get onto the subatomic scale. The brain is a "black box", and the same inputs do not always produce the same outputs. Not even in the same person.
"Gay" is a construct of society. There may be gay actions, but there aren't really gay people. People are just too complex to assign binary values to.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... though in fact I agree with just about everything Deeej says, the title of his post must logically be wrong - if there are gay actions, then there must be such a thing as gay!
The thesis, however, seems pretty convincing; at any rate, I've thought along those lines for years. That's why I don't really believe in a gay gene - though, as I've said many times before, that doesn't mean that 'gay' is a choice which anyone can make or reject.
Orientation is certainly not a black-and-white issue for most of us; the 'analogue' analogy (that coupling has a nice ring to it!) is very perceptive. It embraces, among many other things, the situation in which someone chooses a gay lifestyle only after experiencing gay sex - and that situation is by no means exceptional. There really is evidence suggesting that guys are more likely to grow up gay if they 'mess around' with other boys!
The trouble is, we're inclined to let emotion get in the way of logic. I am NOT suggesting that 'messing around' can 'make' someone gay; it can, however, overcome inhibitions which previously suppressed a pre-existing disposition.
So without implying any criticism of those who consider themselves irrevocably gay or irrevocably straight, I plead with them to remember that most of us are irrevocably grey, and can never be black or white!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Seems Im always sticking my nose into things....The word GAY is a label, just like all the other labels people use to put everything into a neat pocket. There are thousands of different sexual preferences...I happen to be a boy who is attracted to other boys. A girl has absolutely nothing to get me excited....I have never found anything attractive about a girl. But, thats me...for others it may be different, and on and on.
GAY.....Well Im happy some of the time, but not all the time
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Indeed, cossie, you are right, and I have amended the title for this post.
I for one will never pretend that I'm not attracted on occasion to either gender. So if I do end up falling in love with a girl, I won't pretend that I'm not attracted to members of the same sex. (Though I would, presumably, have to sideline my attractions.)
The interesting question is at what stage of the relationship you would bring something like that up. Of course, for me, never having been in a relationship, the question is entirely academic. But I get the impression that even the most relaxed, liberal woman might find her husband-to-be being gay/bisexual/however-you-want-to-term-it something of a threat.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is it then possible to be "somewhat" gay?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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You obviously realised that I was just pulling your chain!
As regards your substantive comment, I do know a fair number of married gays, but - so far as I'm aware - none of them admitted their inclination before marriage. I think I agree with your presumption that it wouldn't be a wise move!
In my own case, I was having an orientation crisis at the time; a longish-term relationship had just ended with both of us deciding that we 'ought' to be str8. But I went into marriage with an absolute commitment to a monogamous relationship - as I would have done in a gay relationship. I've stuck to that commitment, and I don't regret making it, but the time came (after finding this site some years ago) when I felt a compulsion to be honest about myself. I have no intention of straying, but I do look at cute guys in the way most of my str8 contemporaries look at girls. It's probably nostalgia rather that wishful thinking, but at least I am now at peace with myself!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and 'somewhat' isn't the word I'd choose to describe the situation, but yes, I believe that a lot of guys are inherently bisexual but with a preference for gay relationships. Despite the fact that I ended up in a conventional marriage, that would describe me well beyond my teens. I've spent the rest of my life being gay-supportive whenever the opportunity arose, but my own situation has opened my eyes to the wide range of conditions between gay and str8. I guess that my basic feeling is that everyone has the right to choose their position on the 'gay - str8 spectrum' without criticism from those who choose a different position.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I did my best to admit it to my wife before we married. I never managed to admit it to myself then, though, so that made the admission to her rather more woolly that was "right".
She heard the words and chose not to have understood them, despite being told that we could break the engagement off. I sometimes wonder if it woudl not have been "better" had she done so.
But we are married and are heading for our 27th anniversary. Even so my being gay is a major negative issue, despite our being friendly about it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Before I dive in, what do you mean by "walk the walk" in this context? I promise I am not being trivial with the idea of "mincing".
One can be gay (however one chooses to define it) and choose to appear str8 in the same way that str8 people can have satsifactory (satisfying?) sex with the same gender.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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By walk the walk I mean to actually be a gay person living in a lifestyle that reflects that scenerio.
Now...... Before everyone pulls out their hair and screams......
I dont mean getting dressed up in dresses, nor do I mean prancing around commenting on periferal fashon sense, nor do I mean acting all campish, nor do I mean sex, or even dating.
I mean the self actuaction of the knowledge that X Self is gay.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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So you're saying that saying you're gay is different from knowing you're gay?
That's pretty obvious -- one can present whatever sort of facade one likes to the world. Many (perhaps even most) people do.
Or are you saying that one can self-deceive oneself into thinking one is gay?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I do know what you mean. Let me ask you. In that definition, where I have admitted to myself that I am gay and am able to say so clearly and confidently to those whom I choose to tell, am I a "gay man" by your definition?
I am married to a beautiful woman and have a 21 year old son. I love my wife dearly, though we drive each other to distraction at times. My entire life and sexual preference is to be partnered with a compatible man. It simply was not to be.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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My "so called" definition is only applicable to me.
Yours is only to you and others to themselves as well.
Self realization is just what it implies.....
Making a conscious choice can be very different from going with ones instincts.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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In the past few years there has been an increase in "chic gays"...... In other words, some people believe it is a social stepping stone to proclaim ones gayness.
Self deception... Yup... good word for it I should think.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> My "so called" definition is only applicable to me.
>
> Yours is only to you and others to themselves as well.
What everybody has said is right to a certain extent. We all believe different things and to various degrees.
I say i'm gay but i have my own definition i have formulated and of course it only works for me. As long as my definition makes sense to me, i'm ok being who i am.
You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because you love them.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but I'd argue that we all have the right to be what we want to be. If you need to espouse a wholly gay lifestyle, then all power to your elbow - but if you prefer to peek out of the closet once a year (spending the rest of your time hiding behind the broken vacuum cleaner) then that's your prerogative. Be what you feel the need to be - no-one has the right to expect you to do otherwise.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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I seem to be gay, then
It had a profound effect on my happiness when I managed to admit it to myself. A profound positive effect. But it also labelled me "for good"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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But maybe they can be a good thing if they help you understand who you are.
I'm still searching...
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