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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Does "I am gay" provide me with an identity? Does "I am str8"?
Why do I (we) need to declare it? Do we need to?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I have been attracted to and have truly loved those of my same sex for as long as I can remember. I am now 78 and have never declared I was gay. If someone I knew well, and I thought could deal with it asked, I told them the truth, but never went into discussing what it was like. I had to be very careful, because of the part of the country I was born and raised in. I was never fem, but my looking at boys and not looking at girls did tip a couple of good friends off. Lucky for me, they could deal with it, and I was sort of unique, so they would nudge me and point out cute guys. I never asked them how they knew they were cute. 
I had to date girls, as a cover, and I did enjoy their company up to a point, but they wanted to go much farther than I. I guess I was cute although I never could see it, because they were always calling, and stopping by. I thought at one time my mother might have known, but I guess all the girl activity made me seem quite normal to her and the rest of the family. I never married, but did have a live-in girlfriend for a while, when I thought I might be able to straighten myself out. It failed, although we are still very good friends. I'm sure I was created gay, but by the time the courts told me it was OK to live gay it was too late for me. I always felt it would have been fine with God all along, because all I ever wanted to do was love someone (and only one) completely.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Being gay is part of what a gay person is.....
Being str8 is part of what a str8 person is....
If a person is gay or str8 that self acknowledgement stands as one of the facets that define where that person stands among his/her peers.
The self awareness prompts the urges and conversly, the urges lead to the self awareness that cause us to be attracted to the gender we are inclined to prefer.
In this day and age it is chic to be gay.... also with the social presence of the gay movement it has become almost a moral imperative to vent to the world our gayness.... Or at least so we are led to believe by he hard core gay liberationists.
The act of standing among unwary peers and proclaiming gayness can be life altering at best and devistating at the worse of it.
The important thing is to be comfortable with who you are within yourself.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is it right to conceal ones gayness by living a str8 lifestyle?
Does this alternate reality harm the individual over time?
Does one regret the lost possibilities?
Does proclaiming ones gayness after the fact of an alternate lifestyle harm those involved?
Does it harm the person making the proclaimation?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As far as belonging......
Well I have never found a place where I actually did belong......
This place being no exception.....
I know as well as you that I would be better appreciated here if I was indeed elsewhere.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... but in essence we humans are tribal animals; though as in all things there are no doubt exceptions, we have an instinctive need to belong. The groupings can be very fluid, but in any given situation there is a perception of 'us' and 'them'. Civilisation hopefully breeds tolerance and understanding, but if I identify myself as a Caucasian Christian from Edinburgh, I thereby classify non-Caucasians, non-Christians, and non-Scotsmen as 'them'. Indeed, I probably regard Glaswegians as 'them', and if I support Heart of Midlothian Football Club I would most certainly regard Hibernian supporters as 'them'. It can be narrowed down almost infinitely, so that those living in a different suburb, or locality, or even street are 'them'. However tolerant and integrated we consider ourselves to be, when we meet someone the strongest first impression is of the differences between us - 'he's coloured', or 'he has a foreign accent' or he's taller/shorter/fatter/thinner/richer/poorer than me. We may learn to suppress these reactions, but they are purely instinctive.
So ... to the str8 majority, being gay classifies US at 'them'; it gives us an identity. Whether it thereby provokes distaste depends upon how civilised the other individual really is, but - like it or not - it DOES gives us an identity. Whether we accept that identity is up to us. I have always relied upon personality to define me; I don't think that being gay (or Caucasian, or Christian, or Scottish) is really all that important. Yet even so, I need to come to sites like this to express my instinctive orientation, and I react favourably to an Edinburgh accent, even though I no longer have one myself. If I meet another Briton in America, he immediately becomes 'us', even if I hadn't thought of my American friends as 'them'.
In short, being gay does give us an identity in the eyes of others, but whether we accept that identity is up to us. Marc rightly identifies the current 'chic' associated with gayness, and points out that the approach does't work for everybody. I agree entirely, and can only re-state a view I've expressed before: it's the right of everyone to make their own decision about wherethey stand - in the front of the Pride parade or at the back of the closet. I think Marc is also right in raising the possibility that suppression of one's true self can be damaging, but again it's a choice that each individual must make for himself.
It must have been pretty stressful for JT to go through life without doing more than peek out of the closet, but in the environment he describes it might have been a great deal more stressful to do otherwise. Only he could make the choice, and he made the choice he felt was right for himself. As he says, we can only be thankful that today's younger generations have a wider range of choices.
And Marc, you are so wrong to feel that you would be better appreciated here if you were elsewhere. Your presence here is valued, as are your qualities as a compassionate person. I just wish that you would adopt a more conciliatory approach from time to time - you can disagree with someone else's opinion without rubbishing either the opinion or the person expressing it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Marc wrote:
> Is it right to conceal ones gayness by living a str8 lifestyle?
I think neither right nor wrong.
>
> Does this alternate reality harm the individual over time?
I am not sure, but I think so.
>
> Does one regret the lost possibilities?
Yes. And yet one gives thanks for those one has made reality
>
> Does proclaiming ones gayness after the fact of an alternate lifestyle harm those involved?
Inevitably.
> Does it harm the person making the proclaimation?
Less that those around them
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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Marc wrote:
> As far as belonging......
>
> Well I have never found a place where I actually did belong......
>
> This place being no exception.....
>
> I know as well as you that I would be better appreciated here if I was indeed elsewhere.....
Actually Cossie sums it up well for you. You are welcome, probabaly, wherever you are. It is the hackles that raise so easily that are unwelcome. I know why you raise them - your early years ingrained the habit - but it is time to change that.
Somehow you have made everything a battle in your life, even when there is no battle to fight. It is time to lay down the claymore and just be that sweet kid again, even if it is only for 10 minutes at a time.
Life sucks less if we allow ourselves to be happier
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Its not as easy to do as it is to say...
The online presence is about the only social outlet I have...
I never go out socially IRL.
and that is gone as well... People continually come into my life and I try my best to place the best side forward but that is never good enough..... I converse one or two times and then no more.....
those few (2 to be exact) that have managed to endure have gone.....
if i am already doing my best then i can only see one solution.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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were you already to be doing your rwsal best then I would continue that road with you.
This will bite you hard. But good friends have a job and that is to say hard things as well as they can.
You only believe that you are doing your best. Before you get hurt, read on.
That does not mean that you do not make an awesome effort. It means that you have a horrible hill you are still climbing. It's steep as steep can be. It has many false summits.
If "doing your best" gets you "so far and no further", then you are either applying your best efforts in the wrong direction, or are not actually applying your best efforts.
OK easy to say.
Look at the hill. A mountaineer climbs by the fastest available route. So does a train.
One goes pretty directly, the other has to zig and zag.
Sailing upwind is impossible without tacking
I suspect you need to look at the direction. They way towards the goal is not necessarily face on.
You have probably noticed that real friends do not let you down. Not all conversations with them are pleasant, but all are in friendship. Some are frustrated conversations (in both directions) and not all move the relationship forwards
While we are about it, I think the world has two classes of people: Those who phone and those who are phoned. Those who visit and those who are visited. I am one who has alwasy had to phone. People rarely phoned me. It is an effort, but it is worthwhile.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No... real friends do not let me down...
They just move on to greener pastures...
I do not think of message boards as a conversation...
Conversations happen in real time with direct interaction...
As for phoning??? Well it seems that everyone has changed their number...
it doesnt matter, i am used to it
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I grew up in the fifties, in a small coastal town where men went to the factories or to sea, and women stayed at home to tend the nest, keeping petty gossip alive. At the onset of puberty I knew what caught my eye, tickled my curiosity, gave me the excitement, but a few incidents taught me to keep quiet about it. Most of my friends left school as early as possible, while I was one of the very few who wanted to go to college or university. So, there I was, getting good marks, wearing glasses, not very successful at athletics or football, or with the girls. If there had been pc's I would probably have been a geek. Being different was something I grew up with and became accustomed to, sort of. Fortunately, I was an early bloomer, taller and stronger than those who might otherwise have felt the urge to pick on me.
In the late sixties I was an exchange student at an all-male college in England, and discovered that there were young men involved in intimate relationships. The ban on homosexual activity had recently been lifted but most of the students I met were still below the age of consent, i.e. 21. Taking the plunge, exploring the secrets of gay life, forming friendships on that basis, - I never saw that as an option. Nobody in his right mind would run the risk of having his name spread like manure all over his home town and beyond, and be labelled for life. I could live as a bachelor or choose a straight lifestyle and try to find myself a wife. Those were my options, or so I thought.
My father taught me a lot about keeping promises and doing the impossible, that even if happiness doesn't come easily, and may never come, you stay the course. I was conceived months before my parents got married. Pregnancy, marriage, being stuck with a bunch of brats, was not what my mother had been anticipating, and she blamed dad for throwing misery over her. Still, he cherished her and kept his promises until ill health sent him to a nursing home, where he died 10 years ago, 82 years old.
I married one of the girls I met at college. We were in love and loved each other, and she gave birth to two wonderful children. There were many happy years, but as time went by we drifted apart, and when the kids took to their wings and left the nest, she flew away, too. We are good friends, though, and are still family, and we share our love for our children and grandchildren. I cannot picture myself without them! If their mother and I hadn't made them some 35 years ago they wouldn't have been here, would they? Now they are making us all happy to no ends. So it was not all bad, after all.
My faith never crumbled, maybe because it has always been light years away from that of preachers like Pat Robertson. He and his companions are the ones committing grave sin. They twist, distort and ridicule the gospel of love, turning it into a malicious caricature of what it was meant to be. They call themselves "evangelical" but their "good news" is of bigotry, hate and greed. It is profoundly disturbing to observe their influence on people and politics in some areas. Fortunately, though, there are church leaders who are worth listening to. One of the wisest men of our time, bishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa, called for the acceptance of gay bishop Gene Robinson, saying, "I am deeply saddened at a time when we've got such huge problems ... that we should invest so much time and energy in this issue...I think God is weeping."
There were times, incidents, encounters, when my carefully controlled feelings and emotions were on the verge of getting the upper hand with me. "Nothing" happened but I was scared beyond my wits! What if colleagues, friends, family, my own children, my students and their parents, had gained insight into these my darkest secrets? My life would have been laid in ruins!
Every person is morally responsible for his own life. Too many times I could have done otherwise, and better. Living for years in hiding has accumulated a pile of frustration and sense of guilt and shame. I don't so much regret lost opportunities. A lot of the opportunities I have had, have not been there because of, or despite, my sexual identity, and I certainly don't regret having the children I have.
I am trying to acknowledge myself as gay, discovering and exploring its ramifications, coming to terms with myself. It is a cleaning-up operation, replaying, rediscovering and sorting out. Going along this path opens up lots of wounds, and reminds me of how lonely I was at times. I hope that it will also make it easier to go on. Whether it will change the way I identify or classify myself, I don't know. I doubt, however, that I will ever come out anywhere but here. The last thing I want to do is to harm or upset the ones I love.
Thank you, Timmy, for this place of safety. You and all the good people here have given me courage which I didn't believe I had.
Marcus gulped. "But.............he was married and had four kids."
"I know you're smarter than you're showing right now. Of course he was and of course he did. What else could he do back then?"
("In a Heartbeat" by Grasshopper.)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13800
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It seems to me that "belonging" is everything you have described here, not anything much at all to do woth orientation.
All manner of tough things are the things you have accepted, embraced and also tolerated.
In so many ways this is the hard road.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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