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You know, I have never heard of anybody gay that I could look up to as a role model. You guys in here are better role models than the ones who are heading all the organizations that are supposed to support gays. There are hundreds of gay men in very powerful positions that are so far in the closet they wont ever make it out. Some of these dudes are so powerful that if they did come out they could change things and make it better for us. I could be totaly wrong, but I dont think I am. The ones that can make a difference dont, the ones that cant make a difference do. Seems a bit backwards to me.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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That is really why we run the "Famous Gays" quiz. To show us just how many gay men and women there are who have made a difference.
I would pick as a role model anyione, regardless of orientation, whose achievements were aligned with what I want to do with my own life.
I think the Danish Ambassador to Israel is gay, out and proud. The things that make a difference are how they are and act. I prefer them to be very ordinary people indeed. Their very ordinariness makes them valuable
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... and I'm sure you're right about the significant number of closeted gays in high places.
The thing is, although the gay cause has moved forward a hell of a lot in the last 25 years or so, coming out can still be a career-threatening move.
Not sure how things are in the States at the moment; I get the impression that some states are ahead of the UK and some are miles behind. In any event, in the UK there is still a vicious and unprincipled downmarket press which stirs up hatred to the extent that this is possible under UK law.
I can't really feel too much resentment for those who elect to stay in the closet to protect all that they have worked to achieve; I don't know what I'd do if I were in their shoes. I do have one closeted acquaintance who has a senior position in a major charity; he once told me that he'd love to take up the gay cause, but for the fact that the work he already does (with children) is, to him, a greater priority, and he is frightened that there would be pressure to oust him from his position if his gay inclinations became public. The sad thing is, he's probably right.
I know this sounds a bit twee, but I still believe that if we all do a little, we can achieve a lot. I guess that this won't provide a supply of role models but, hey, you can't have everything!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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I think that answer is that each helps in his or her way.
Your closeted friend will, by his general attitudes, not encourage gayness, but encourage gay acceptance in all that he does for 90% of the time. A rotten part of the closet os having to accept some homophobia in silence though.
Any gay person, by simply being normal, helps.
There was a time when charcaters like John Inman and Larry Grayson were necessary. They created laughter in place of hatred. Oddly there is a question mark on each of these about whether they are ('were' in Grayson's case) homosexual at all. After all, camp is not the sole preserve of the gay.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie wrote:
I can't really feel too much resentment for those who elect to stay in the closet to protect all that they have worked to achieve; I don't know what I'd do if I were in their shoes. I do have one closeted acquaintance who has a senior position in a major charity; he once told me that he'd love to take up the gay cause, but for the fact that the work he already does (with children) is, to him, a greater priority, and he is frightened that there would be pressure to oust him from his position if his gay inclinations became public. The sad thing is, he's probably right.
Cossie, I read this and wept. Sat. verb. sap.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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>there is still a vicious and unprincipled downmarket press which stirs up hatred to the extent that this is possible under UK law.
Hi Cossie,
Which publications are particularly bad at this? I have to confess I only read the Times and the Torygraph and the BBC News so perhaps am completely out of touch with public opinion. I was under the impression, though, that most of the tabloids don't care very much whether someone is gay unless
- he or she has lied about their sexuality, or
- he or she has been involved in something particularly dreadful (e.g. murder, rape) that may or may not have been related to his or her sexuality, or
- he or she has had an under-age or inappropriate relationship
Of course, all three reasons have overtones of homophobia, as in many cases the perpetrator's sexuality is irrelevant or incidental to whatever it is they are alleged to have done, and it could just as easily have been done by a straight person. But I don't think the tabloids ever imply that just by being gay you are automatically more immoral than everyone else.
Perhaps I've answered my own point: they don't condemn you by default, but if you put a toe out of line then your homosexuality suddenly becomes very important. It's not blatantly homophobic, but it is insidious.
David
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Said Timmy:
>Oddly there is a question mark on each of these about whether they are ('were' in Grayson's case) homosexual at all
John Inman? No question mark there. He's entered into a civil partnership.
>On 27 December 2005 Inman entered into a civil partnership with his partner of 33 years Ron Lynch in Westminster under a new British law giving official recognition to same sex relationships, which had come into effect the week before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Inman
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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The tabloid press pillories when it can pander to "public outrage" and thus sell more adverts.
The ones you read are not immune though.
The Sun is technically the best written paper in the country. A pity it contains so much well written rubbish.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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How odd. He had always denied homosexuality in the past. Good luck to him. 33 years. Wow.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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When I was talking about big time gay men, actually I had in mind the ones with extreme power. Im sure a lot of our senators and congressmen are gay or bi, some of our governors and mayors (lol). Look at Barney Franks, he hasnt done anyting to help us or get any laws passed or defeated. The only thing he has done is keep a male prostitue in his home. Look at Forbes, who was gonna take what he had? Yet he did nothing to try and help make things better for gays. Maybe I dont know so much, but the guys with real power are cowards. The real people with guts are the ones like Timmy and all you guys here
ok, lunch is over and time for class. Thanks for letting me vent lol.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13796
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You have a point, quite a large one.
Perhaps it is enough, just today, that these people are in power doing a normal job, and not pushimg gay or other issues?
By the way, while it has been declared that there "Are no gay men in Wyoming", one town has a gay mayor.
I don't disagree that rights are still needed. And I'm glad that your generation is taking up the baton. We each grew up making a difference. I almost met Marc in 1972 when he attended with his pargner the Gay Lib Annual Conference at the students union in Birmingham, where I was a student. He made more of a difference as an attendee than I did as a frightened onlooker.
It's ordinary people like Marc and and like you who will make the difference. Plus a few good men and women in power.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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It isn't the 'Southern Baptist' approach of condemning homosexuality out of hand, but - as you suggest - the irrelevant emphasis on orientation when an individual is in the news for some other reason. I don't think it would be a wise move on my part to name particular publications, but ten minutes' browse in any newsagent will identify the offenders.
It can also be gratuitously vicious - outing a gay who works with children, for example. We all know that there is no direct link between homosexuality and paedophilia, but the Great British Public is less well informed - or apparently chooses to be so. One way or another, jobs can be lost and - regardless of anti-discriminatory legislation - it can become virtually impossible to find another job in the same field.
There is also the issue of entrapment; the George Michael situation is not unique to the United States, though in the UK it's more likely to be organised by the press than by the police.
Btw, a note for JFR: as I've already made you weep (and, damn it, you had every reason to do so), I formally withdraw my threat to wrap a Zimmer frame around your neck!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Standing back and thinking about the options, who is ultimately most likely to advance the gay cause? A guy who reaches high office, makes no secret of the fact that he is gay, but achieves public respect by doing his job well with neither a straight nor a gay bias? Or a guy who reaches high office and then gives the impression (or allows the press to create the impression) that he is only - or at least primarily - interested in gay issues? On balance, I think the first scenario does our cause most good.
It's an imperfect world out there, but we've all got to live in it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Not all Southern Baptists are bad.
My Kevin was a Southern Baptist minister for some 12 years before I met him.
I cured him of misdirection.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Hi Marc ;-D
Thee is at least one out of the way;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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HAHAHAHA.....
Hi Brian...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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